A question about coil winding

Absolutely not.

Multi strand wire does not have any insulation between the strands and you would only have one turn for one turn.

When winding motors, a sample wire is usually inserted and formed into the lamination space. The sample turn is taken out and measured onto a winding form, for size. Wind the winding with as many turns as needed and then tape the turns together loosely but enough to keep it neat, usually ate the ends out of the laminations. Insulate the steel with hytex or fishpaper, insulting materials to protect the wire insulation for the sharp corners and then thread the winding you have made into the lamination slots. Bend the ends over to take up the least space and make sure the windings are protected and taped into place. Dive wooden or synthetic wedges into the lamination ends to stop vibrations.

When all winding are in place put the whole thing in a oven and heat for a few hours, dip in insulating varnish or high temp paint and bake some more to harden and hold everything in place. Clean laminations and wire ends and connect series and parallel desired windings.

Use high temperature coated wire, formel or hmmm.... forget the other high temp names of insulation materials for wire enamels.

The OP said "whether a multstrand wire made of smaller magnet wires ..."

Cheers

Multistrand wire is composed of non insulated strands.

Is the term "multstrand" not a typo?

"Magnet Wire" implies it is enameled or has some other insulating coating

I do not think the OP implied non-insulated wire.

Cheers

Perhaps you could give an example of multistrand wire where each strand is insulated and where would something like that be used.

Wire implies only one conductor, stranded or single. Cable can be multiconductor.

Next, tell us how this multiconductor wire could be made into multiple turns.

Again I say "

Thanx! I must have missed the link last time.

I can't see where four or two strands would save any work though. Too manny splices would be a lot of work inside a motor bell. I can see a complex iron warpping scheme may work quite well with this cable. Thermal conduction may be a boon.

Again I say "

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Yes, you have 500 x 6 = 3000 turns but you have to make five splices and insulate them. These would consist of five conductors being connected from the inner most layer to the outermost layer. You could also have a voltage jumping problem through your insulation as the voltage at one end will be connected to wiring in your non-sheathed cable, that is connected to the other end of the potential difference. You appear to aware of this problem already.

and=20

rom=20

No. That is not the case. There are two splices, each of six parallel wires, one splice at each end of the bundle. The inner and outer layers would not be connected to each other. They would be feeding either another coil or the output/input lines.

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t=20

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used.

No. The varnish, glyptal, conformal etc. has only to be of sufficient dielectric strength to resist the potential difference of the adjacent wire. Look at a Tesla coil.

If the coating on the wire is good for 120 volts to ground, it is good for 240 volts between two strands. Even the voltage between two layers would be the line to line voltage divided by the number of layers. That is far less than the 'highest voltage'.

In something low voltage, like a home made windmill, the relative potential differences are so low as to be negligible.

mike

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You appear to understand the question. Thank you for your response. Multiple windings are needed for the flux density, but this is high voltage, low current, allowing minimal wire size, but the risk is with punchthrough. I'm considering varnish and fishpaper. But i need to know that the multiple windings combined at the beginning and end will yield the effect of the total number of windings placed, without being diminished by the shunting at the ends.

I haven't given this much thought, so please take these 'insights' with a grain of salt.

In common usage, I've only seen a need for paralleled windings in low voltage permanent magnet powered windmill alternators and dual voltage motors, where they series/parallel them to suit low/high line voltage.

There is relatively little power produced in a windmill, so any waste from resistance is to be avoided. The paralleled wires reduce the voltage drop by a ratio equal to the number of paralleled conductors. It's actually the square of the current reduction in percent.

Here is the problem. When you double up on a wire, you will be halving the length. Your amperage capacity will double, but the generated voltage measured at the ends of the winding will be halved. Put another way, only half the generated current is being carried in each of a paralleled pair. the I^2 losses are now 1/4 of what they were. Same rules for a motor.

Each wrap of wire in a coil adds to the voltage being produced. Think of the instantaneous voltages at one point of the winding 'leg' as series batteries. 100 wraps =3D 100 tiny batteries in series.

If you parallel the windings, you now have two runs of half length. The physical space won't let you put more copper into the form regardless of how you parallel them.

Now, you have the equivalent of two sets of 50 tiny batteries in series being paralleled with each other. The voltage is halved, but there is now more copper carrying whatever current there is.

A motor behaves in the same manner.

Is there some way of wiring this thing in a three phase 'Wye' or 'Star' pattern? That alone will reduce the voltage across each phase winding by a factor of root 3, (1.7 something). That's almost the same as doubling the insulation value of the coating.

Another thing to keep in mind is the 'ampere turns' value. That determines how much magnetism will be produced. The amount of extra current you can push through parallel wires will probably be offset by the reduced length. A good motor design is probably pushing way over eighty percent efficiency. A good transformer is probably running 95+ efficiency. That is more from good magnetic design, not winding magic.

Another thought: Is it possible to spray Glyptal of Conformal on the top of each winding layer as the coils are being wound?

A thing with higher voltage transformers also comes to mind. The input/output connections on the tanks (X1, H1 etc) are placed so that the LEAST amount of potential difference is created between them.

Out of curiosity, what voltages would you be looking at? Really high voltages have the benefit of reducing line current at a given power transfer rate. That reduces I^2 R looses on transmission lines.

I don't know what benefits you are looking for in a very high voltage motor. They may not be enough to offset the problems.

As for the terminations of these parallel windings, I'd *guess* a wire with an ampacity of around twenty percent more than the sum of the individual wires would be more than good.

Please provide a bit more information regarding horsepower, voltage and amperage ratings. My curiosity is piqued. If this is a 'secret' project I will understand.

mike

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Your comments about the winding was well atriculated, thank you. I'm in the process of making a winding jig. And probably using #30 wire.

The Ed Gray motor had multiple coils in rotor and stator, and used high voltage, low current. And the electromagnetic flux density apparently got very high very quickly, with a capacitive discharge format.

Now the problem I see with the design is that the best push is lost, because when stator coil is lined up with rotor coil, the repulsion is the product of one against the other, or timed so that they have missed each other. The Ed Gray motor had its coil laminations machined so that there was a 16 degree angle to help with the push getting good direction.

I think the kick of one such coil working against another is a good notion, but I would rather see more direct push for the jolt. So I am seeking to wind a couple of coils onto transformer bodies, after taking them apart, stripping them of their windings, winding a new coil on a form and slipping it back on to the transformer body after varnishing each lamination to return it to being able to reduce eddy currents.

How to use the mutual repulsion kick? Something like a paddlewheel, or with more than two electromagnets, more like the individual cylinders firing in an ICE. If it can be quick enough, a momentary contact would be enough for the "rotor" coil to kick before it disconnects. And the transformer body, formed in epoxy, could move like the piston in an ICE, turning a crank.

Plenty of issues, like source, and bearings, and guides, and a bunch more, but the first thing is to see what kind of real world power is available. Starting small, with a small transformer, avoiding the temptation of going with something big like a microwave transformer body.

And the juice should be easy to come by with a voltage multiplier, with 1N4007's only costing about 10 cents each in quantity. But right now I have a microwave transformer, and the diodes they use in the ovens arranged as a full wave bridge.

There are plans for the Gray "Fuelless Motor", with a commentary about the Gray claim about it not deplet> I don't know what benefits you are looking for in a very high voltage

Just be sure to make at least one side of your jig movable (removable) or you will never get it off the jig. Depending on your jig, it's nice to lay several strips of tape, adhesive side up on the jig, so when your finished winding you can wrap the wires to stablize them before removing from jig. (string also works). Mike

I haven't a clue about your form, but I don't know how you put it in a motor after it's varnished. Mike

You don't put it in after it is varnished. You varnish the windings in the core to hold things tight from vibration and conduct the heat away from the wire.

the=20

the=20

When you are winding coils, you most certainly can brush or spray the Glyptal on each layer before starting the next one. Take it slow and you won't even get your fingers covered like I did.

Secondarily, I am not aware of ANY varnish type coatings that help to carry heat away from the wire. Every coating I am aware of acts as an insulation to some degree. Some web sites talk of 'special resins' with certain fillers which help in heat conductivity. I don't know anything about them.

Centrifugal force may be a bigger danger than vibration. Now, having said that, there MAY be a particular RPM where a resonance is set up in the coils. Thee should be a way of testing for that before any sort of mass production takes place.

mike

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For solutions which may work for you, please check:

The heat disapation is not a big feature of the varnish but nevertheless, is there. Varnishing the coils before placement is not really possible as the coils become stiff and still need to be bent into place in the laminations. Trouble is wih varnishing after is the clean up of the laminations becomes a pain. Lots of fishpaper /Hytex lamination covers and wedges usually locks the windings down enough without varnish but the varnish glues it all together so vibration doesn't result in a flying piece of paper inside.

When you are winding coils, you most certainly can brush or spray the Glyptal on each layer before starting the next one. Take it slow and you won't even get your fingers covered like I did.

Secondarily, I am not aware of ANY varnish type coatings that help to carry heat away from the wire. Every coating I am aware of acts as an insulation to some degree. Some web sites talk of 'special resins' with certain fillers which help in heat conductivity. I don't know anything about them.

Centrifugal force may be a bigger danger than vibration. Now, having said that, there MAY be a particular RPM where a resonance is set up in the coils. Thee should be a way of testing for that before any sort of mass production takes place.

mike