Yet another new laptop

I got fed up with an IMB A21 crapping out due to mechanical failure in the heat pipe cooling system, and two HP laptops, which failed within half a year each.

I paid myself sick for an Apple MacBook Pro, in late 2008, and it is still going strong. Besides, you do not need any Windows in it. I have Vmware Fusion and an old XP in it for memrgencies.

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-TV

Buy a USED Dell on eBay! That what I do for all my computer needs. I've been VERY happy with the several I've gotten for myself and my kids.

You have to be very picky about the models, as some of them have THREE different screens, with very different resolutions, for the same base model. You have to check the picture of the label on the bottom of the laptop to be sure which option it has.

Jon

ed out (what a POS!) I picked up an HP Envy at Costco with Win 10 of cours e. First thing I did was disable the touch screen. Like nearly every othe r machine around I can't use the touch pad because it doesn't have separate buttons. So I have to plug in a mouse dongle which isn't too bad on this machine because the socket is near the back, so I can leave it in without f ear of damaging the laptop bag.

rn it. I have 3 more weeks to do that. I'm not really finding anything el se with a better keyboard that isn't getting up in price. I also need a lo wer priced laptop or one of those small case PCs for use with a test fixtur e. I stumbled across a number of listings for refurbished Dell Precision M

4700s. Don't know why there seem to be so many. Some are sold "grade B" ( scratches and dings) and/or without hard drive or OS usually with low memmo ry. I found one listing at Newegg that is under $500 with a SSD and 16 GB. This could be usable for my main PC and if it works ok for the test fixtu re I could buy another one maybe at a lower price.

the keyboard thing with the new HP and Dells is ridiculous. I guess I'm ju st asking if anyone (Jeff?) is familiar with the M4700 and can offer advice . The only features I'm not crazy about is the lower res display HD720 and lack of Blue tooth which may just be a lack of drivers for Win 10 which it comes with.

I would be happy to consider an Apple laptop, but I understand they don't m ake 17" machines. I much prefer the larger screen which I can still barely read text on with 25% enlargement. I'm also not sure I can run all the to ols I need under OSX or whatever Apple uses. The FPGA vendors support one or two versions of Linux, but they don't mention Apple machines the last ti me I checked. There are also various hardware tools that use the PC for th e UI and the ones I've considered don't even support Linux.

Rick C.

You mean used as opposed to refurbished which is what I'm looking at buying. I don't know I could be confident enough in a used machine. If someone is selling a perfectly working computer, the question is why?

Rick C.

Well, you only buy ones that are fairly new. Some people have to have the LATEST everything. Some idiots buy a whole NEW computer every time they get a bunch of virus in it. I run ONLY Linux, so really don't have much trouble with virus, etc. infections. When buying online, you want to get a good view of the Dell label that gives the order code. You can then look that up at Dell to find out the exact options in that specific machine.

Throw the disk drive out (if it comes with one) and get a SSD. You can often get a deal on a machine where the hard drive has been pulled for security reasons. I don't want anybody else's used HD anyway. That's the one sensitive part of a laptop. Also, a lot of sellers will show the BIOS boot-up screen on computers where the HD has been pulled, there's lots of info on that screen to ID what is in the machine, and verify they are selling what they claim.

Anyway, I've had QUITE good luck buying used Dells. A few laptops, and quite a number of desktops, from the Optiplex line, that's their commercial- grade, as opposed to consumer-grade, line.

Jon

Yep. I bought my wife a Dell Optiplex 7010 (refurbished/Amazon), almost as many bells and whistles as my 7020, for 1/6 the price, proper Dell order code and Microsoft ID.

I avoid eBay, etc, simply because I know Amazon returns are never a hassle... 71 purchases in the last six months probably helps the courtesy ;-) ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
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      Understanding is a fountain of life to one who has it, 
      But the instruction of fools is folly.  Proverbs 16:22

I've had reasonably good luck buying "off lease" business-class Dell laptops directly from Dell's factory outlet, then replacing the HD with a new SSD.

If you ask a repairman, what makers and models he's familiar, you'll get the list of best sellers and least reliable machines. If you ask him what makers and models he never sees, those would be the models to buy. Unfortunately, that also means he has no experience with them.

That's my problem with the Dell Precision product line. When they were new, they cost more than what most of my customers were willing to pay. I know of only one Precision M4700 laptop owner. He's a mechanical designer and uses it for viewing and creating drawings. I don't recall what he paid in 2012 but I do recall that it was huge.

Mostly, he uses an external monitor for higher resolution and the built in 1920x1080 display for travel. However, the two links below that you found both have the low res 1366x768 display, which I consider only useful for games and watching TV video. You'll end up scrolling up and down in order to read anything on the screen.

Newegg search for M4700 and 1920x1080 screen: You might also want to look at the later M4800.

M4700 Spec sheet:

I consider the 1366x768 display to be nearly useless. Be prepared to pay about $100 more for a 1920x1080 display. Or, you can buy the laptop with a low res display, and just replace the panel with a high res version.

It has a slot for a Dell Wireless 380 BT 4.0 board. Just buy one on eBay and cram it in:

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Because the seller sees it as a way to make money. Microsloth has been rather liberal with their refurbishers program, where a Win 10 license costs about $50 to the refurbisher. MS wants as many Win 10 users as possible and sees refurbishing old machines, with Win 10 installed, as a way to do this. To the refurbisher, it means taking a machine which he obtained from a recycler, doing the necessary labor to make them play, installing Win 10, and selling them for a decent profit. Everyone wins.

Most of machines come from "off lease" and "surplus equipment" sources. What happens is corporate and government agencies, which are large consumers of business class computahs, discover that they cannot afford the maintenance and continuous update costs of older computers. If a machine is compromised by a virus or component failure (i.e. bulging capacitors), it is generally cheaper, easier, and quicker to replace the machine with a shiny new model, than it is to fix the old one. It is also easier to get capital expense funding, than it is to find money for maintenance. So, the first sign of a problem, the machine goes to recycler. Taking Section 179 deduction on the computer in the first year makes sure that none of the machines are being depreciated, which would be the only reason for a company to keep them around. So, the company or government entity cuts their costs, computah makers sell more boxes, and again everyone wins.

Of course the buyers of refurbished computers also win. I just sold four refurbished machines to a small company for a little less than what one brand new Dell machine would have cost them. They're not as fast, are somewhat of a cosmetic embarrassment, and are lacking in some of the latest features, but do the job well enough. So, the buyer wins.

The best part for me is that the various vendors offer liberal exchange or refund warranties on refurbished equipment. I don't have to use those warranties very often, but they're quite handy. After that, I don't have to worry about the Dell's extended warranty, which means I can work on this out of warranty equipment without the customer worrying about me ruining their warranty. So, I win.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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The one I'm looking at has a SSD, 256 GB. I had just bought a 1 TB SSD bef ore the Lenovo went south so if I get one with a rotating disk I'm ready to swap it out.

This model, M4700, appears to be a tank. It is heavy and the PSU is heavy, a number of users comment on that. If this ends up being my personal comp uter I'll be a bit disappointed by the screen, 15" 720p rather than the 17" 1080 I'm used to. For now I'll get it ramped up with all the software I n need and try it out as the test fixture machine. I'm ditching my contract assembly house and will need to get the whole testing thing wrapped up nice and pretty for a new supplier.

Rick C.

I'll do that.

Really? Useless? I think before I got a laptop I was working with a 1280 wide monitor. The fonts and such on my current 1920 wide display are often so small I can't see them. Even with 125% enlargement in Windows many thi ngs are not easy to read. I expect a 1366 wide display would be about righ t.

I'm not sure the board isn't in there. I've read that this machine origina lly shipped with Win 7 and there just aren't working drivers for Win 10 whi ch is what these come with. I'm not excited about starting out with an uns upported version of Windows. If it becomes the base for my test fixture it will need to be in operation for some years to come.

I've noticed there seem to be a pretty wide spread in prices for machines s imilarly equipted. Not sure if this means one company puts more effort int o checking out the machine or if they just are making more profit.

Rick C.

I'm taking some of the advice I've received here and I think I'm taking a r un at this machine.

It's a 17" model but still cheap for an unknown reason. Maybe it's the i5 and the 8 GB of RAM. I will evaluate this machine and I'm sure it will wor k ok for the test fixture. It has Win 7 Pro, but I will see about installi ng Linux anyway. If that works out I'll get one with no OS and a full 16 G B if not 32 for my personal machine running Linux and will finally be free of the Microsoft tyranny.

Well, maybe. There are still devices that don't support Linux like attache d logic analyzers and oscilloscopes.

Rick C.

A clue might be that most users don't like dragging around a large laptop with a 17" display. I've unloaded a few 17" laptops for customers, who then purchased a smaller display. However, if you're going to use it as a desktop replacement, 17" is fine. I prefer an external monitor for a desktop.

It depends on the i5 type. Some don't do hyperthreading. The one you found is an i5-2540M:

2 cores and 4 threads, so you have hyperthreading. Has Intel VPro, so your good for VM (virtual machine) use.

I'm not thrilled with the 3MB L2 CPU cache. Larger would be better and faster, but also more expensive.

Intel says max RAM is 16GB. Dell data sheet says 32GB if you use DDR3

1333 MHz RAM (but only 16GB with 1600MHz). I would believe Dell. 1920x1080 on a 17.3" display is fine. Dell Ultrasharp is the same as IPS, so I think you'll find the display acceptable.

Test fixture? What a waste of a perfectly good computah.

These days, I'm pushing and using Chromebooks. My Windoze XP laptop just sits in the car doing nothing.

If Microsoft had don't Windoze properly, I would be out of business. As the business plan stands today, I should have not worries about being in business for a long time to come.

Do you really need a high performance laptop with a 17" display for running a logic analyzer or oscilloscope? If not, something more modest running Linux or Chome OS will probably take care of 90% of whatever you're doing, while the remaining 10% runs on a dedicated Windoze laptop.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Also, it has a BlueGoof slot. "Dell Precision M6600 Bluetooth Card How-To Video Tutorial"

-- Jeff Liebermann snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com

150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060 Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Am 18.03.2018 um 02:28 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:

I have a Precision M6600 since it was rolled out. Admittedly, it's quite heavy and power-hungry, but I'm more than happy with it.

I run it under Linux Mint with Win XP and Win7 in VMware virtual machines. It is fast enough for Altium Designer, Modelsim, routing Xilinx FPGAs even in the virtual machines. I have changed the two hard disks to 1TB SSDs. It outspeeds a customer's CAD server in LTspice. :-)

cheers, Gerhard

That would impact pricing of *all* 17 inch laptops including new ones. I s imply meant this individual unit seems priced a bit low compared to many 15 inch units. This one comes with Win 7 Pro, so maybe that impacts the pric e. I believe you wrote they would have to pay $50 to install Win 10. Win

7 may be an issue for me, we'll see.

This machine only comes with 8 GB RAM, but that should be plenty for the te st fixture. If I want to use one of these for my computer I can get anothe r one with 16 GB.

What should I use, a switch, lightbulb and piece of paper? Test data is co llected in an interactive custom program and pasted into a spreadsheet (the program puts the data into the Windows paste buffer). The main issue is i t has to support FPGA programming which means either Windows or Linux on an x86 type CPU. I thought about one of the small box PCs, but why worry wit h separate keyboard, mouse, display, etc. when you can get it all in one pa ckage for $300?

What does "more modest" mean? A 15" inch display? The cost difference is virtually nil on these used machines and there is *no* downside that I can see. In fact, I MUCH prefer the larger display. Currently the test fixtur e uses a desktop tower and a 21 inch monitor with keyboard and mouse!

I am open to suggestions, but an all-in-one unit suits me fine. Nice and p ortable when I take this to a different board assembler. The guys I am cur rently with have burned their bridge.

Rick C.

How long with it run on battery? My last couple of computers would only la st an hour or so. This machine is more like two hours, so I can actually u se it in Panera's when eating without plugging it in. At an hour I would w orry it would conk out on me at the end of my meal. I assume you have one of the faster processors and separate video memory?

Rick C.

Thanks for the link. I thought it only had a DisplayPort connector, but I see it has HDMI in the rear. Great! You are always a great resource for this sort of thing.

Rick C.

I see where the M6500 does not have HDMI. Is DisplayPort comparable and easy to connect to an HDMI device?

Rick C.