Wiring Faults

I've been involved in a discussion in a UK amateur group about the possibility of neutral faults causing hazards of the protective earth (PE) getting a high voltage. Seems they use a type of wiring called PME or TN-C-S where a single conductor is used for neutral and PE with multiple earth connections.

The problem with this method is that a break in the combined protective earth/neutral (PEN) line would leave homes with a poor or no earth connection which can have an elevated voltage on the PE line.

I believe this is what we commonly have in the US. The PE is supplemented with a bond between PE and a water pipe or similar ground, but it appears even water pipes from the street are using plastic now, so there are fewer ways to get a solid ground connection.

A house wide GFCI won't protect against this problem because the current would still flow in the neutral line back to the point where it is bonded to the PE which should be before the GFCI. I was thinking a simple voltage detection on the PE line of a home relative to even a poor ground (separate from the PEN) should suffice for triggering a protective device that could be built into the main breaker for the house. It should be a very simple circuit potentially without active devices.

--

Rick C 

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, 
on the centerline of totality since 1998
Reply to
rickman
Loading thread data ...

ed PME

Most electrical codes require a grounding rod buried X feet into the ground depending on ground conductivity.

formatting link

t
a

ive

That is why a ground rod is required, by law in most jurisdictions, pesky government regulations, eh? I'm sure people wouldn't cheat when wiring up a house if there were no regulations...

John :-#)#

Reply to
John Robertson

Sounds like you're advocating going back to ELCBs. Adding a local ground rod does the job, and is now required in the UK.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

I don't think I'm advocating ELCBs, mostly because I have no idea what they are.

--

Rick C 

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, 
on the centerline of totality since 1998
Reply to
rickman

:) They cut the power to the building when the voltage difference between Frame (which is the earth wiring within the building) and a separate earth rod rises to 50v.

They were mandated since 1955 for local earth rod installs, and became obsolete in the 70s as RCDs took over. (Note that early RCDs got called current operated ELCBs.)

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

The trouble is they do totally different jobs. The RCDs in my house trip at

6 mA. An ELCB sensing voltage difference would have to sense the tiny voltage drop on the PE path for 6 mA to do the same job. Not likely to work well.

An ELCB sensing a voltage difference between PE and an earth connection would protect a PME installation from a broken PEN wire.

My understanding is a ground connection at the entry to the premises is required in the US and I think they are required in the UK, but I don't know. There seems to be some difference of opinion about whether they are installed or installed correctly in the UK. The voltage sense of an ELCB would do the job of protecting such installations.

Or do I misunderstand the ELCB?

--

Rick C 

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, 
on the centerline of totality since 1998
Reply to
rickman

As you say they do different jobs. ELCBs offer no protection against touching a live wire, hence their wholesale replacement.

yes, in principle. In practice one of the problems with ELCBs is that so many were found after decades of service to have a disconnected earth, thus offering no protection at all.

AIUI the 18th edition will require a ground rod for PME installs.

formatting link

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr
[disconnected neutral]

it would if placed before the ground

current imbalance breaker utility ===()()====== dwelling | ----- --- -

but then would be subject to triggerong by currents injected through the ground

Same problem. neighbour grounds live to get worms and your house goes dark.

formatting link

--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software
Reply to
Jasen Betts

GFCIs with a different moniker.

--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software
Reply to
Jasen Betts

Not really. GFCI is a type of RCD which senses an imbalance in the current flow in the hot and neutral lines to detect current which might be flowing through a person and then interrupts the power. It doesn't even need aground to work. The ELCB senses a voltage on the protective earth (PE) wire which should always be near ground potential. I believe they usually wire this device between the incoming PE and the PE going to the circuit. But it could also be wired with the installation ground on the one terminal and the PE ground on the other. This would give protection in the case of an open upstream PEN wire.

--

Rick C 

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, 
on the centerline of totality since 1998
Reply to
rickman

there exist current operated ELCBs which are RCDs like GFCIs, I have only today discovered that voltage operated ELCBs are, or rather were, a thing.

--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software
Reply to
Jasen Betts

Exactly. Current operated ELCBs *are* RCDs. That was just the early name for them.

--

Rick C 

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, 
on the centerline of totality since 1998
Reply to
rickman

Like Jasen Betts, my idea of earth-leakage circuit breakers was that they compared the current in the live and neutral lines, and broke the power feed if the currents weren't within roughly a milliamp of equality.

None of the ones I bought and fitted (or had fitted) sensed the voltage on the protective earth connection.

--
Bill Sloman, sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.