Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars. - Page 4

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Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 04:56:28 -0000, snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

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Not true at all.  You totally discount both marketing assume a perfect
market.  People pay more (allowing a higher profit) on "name brands".
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TAUTOLOGIES-R-US?

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Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
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What do you think the manufacturing cost of fabrication is?
- Feedstock, most of which is, and can be, recycled,
- Power, minimal,
- Cost of the unit, divided by its expected lifetime, multiplied by time to print?

These are all very small.

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You've added a whole retail phase; which isn't really the point of 3-D printing.  
  I'm looking at a mature fabrication economy - when you don't buy most things  
you fabricate them.

In that scenario, the economic case for large scale mass-production disappears,  
because everyone fabricates what they want, or buys it from someone who does  
(which would obviously be more expensive; but worth it, for example, if they  
have a larger fabricator than you).


Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
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Cost recovery for most materials is trivial.

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For 3D metal printing, lots of power.

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Babble.


For techniques such as molding, yes.

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Pure fantasy.

  
Pure fantasy and both economic and practical nonsense.


--  
Jim Pennino

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Friday, 7 July 2017 18:16:11 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com  wrote:

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why?

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On 07/07/2017 02:43 PM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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For a start, division of labour makes things much more productive.

Second, choice of materials and fabrication technique are highly  
non-obvious to non-gearheads.  There are big differences between cast,  
forged, extruded, and HIPped metal parts even with the same composition.

Third, only a small minority of materials are suitable for 3D printing.  
Doesn't work with leather, wood, or fibreglass, for instance.

Fourth, the range of appearance and surface texture possible with 3-D  
printing is small.  Try making a soda pop bottle that way, or fuzzy  
bedroom slippers.

Fifth, getting any reasonably smooth surface is either very very slow or  
requires finishing (sanding or paint or polishing), either of which  
makes the whole exercise pointless for the end-user.  Not to mention  
heat treatment, annealing, and so on.

Sixth, I get free two-day delivery of anything I want that Amazon sells.  
  For anything much larger than that bedroom slipper, the machine will  
still be chugging along when the UPS guy arrives.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--  
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
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Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Friday, 7 July 2017 20:25:22 UTC+1, Phil Hobbs  wrote:
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e:
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D printing.
t things
isappears,
ho does
if they

Whereas home 3d printing will wipe out the labour entirely. Select your pro
duct the same way you use Amazon now, and it makes it with no further human
 input.

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Yes, OTOH 3d printing has some structural design advantages. I don't see th
at preventing its widespread use.

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Of course. Lots of current household goods are plastic only, those could be
come 3d printed. Concrete is already 3d printed, and now metal albeit with  
considerable issues. Hopefully the ongoing development of thermoplastics wi
ll enable more goods to be made from them in future than today.

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Even today some 3d printers are heated. It's not too hard for the printer i
tself to do the vapour phase polishing & annealing.

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I'm sure future printers will have many nozzles, not one. I also expect the
m to have some other tricks to speed up production. Even a right-now Mad Ma
x courier on speed dial isn't going to get your Amazon goods to you in 20 m
inutes.


NT

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Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
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Yadda yadda. "It's digital, it's shiny, it'll change everything!"

Fanboi alert.  

You clearly have no idea of the sheer amount of knowledge embodied in modern mechanical and materials engineering, nor of the infrastructure required.  

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
(who comes from a long line of steel men)

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Saturday, 8 July 2017 00:20:22 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:

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Now you're being silly.

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Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On 07/07/2017 03:22 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

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I don't think home 3D printing will ever make up a significant portion  
of manufacturing in part for the reasons you mention, and partly  
psychology. As you mention there are a lot of things it can't do and  
materials it can't work with, for the foreseeable future it will only be  
good for printing random knick-knacks.

And psychologically speaking as a 30-something who knows lots of 20  
somethings - the younger crowd doesn't really _want_ random  
knick-knacks. We don't have room for them, for one thing. We don't live  
in 4 bedroom homes on 2 acres of land and probably never will. If we're  
going to spend money we really prefer to spend it on high-quality  
"botique" stuff that we might have a chance of fitting in the spare 4  
square feet we have in our living-cube.

Nobody wants "unlimited plastic honeycomb knives" on demand. Nobody  
wants to fill their kitchen with 57 3D printed pink plastic sporks.  
Nobody wants it!


Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On 07/08/2017 08:46 AM, bitrex wrote:

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Millennials are frankly fascinated with antiques, stoneware plates,  
sentimental silverwear their grandmother left to them, durable products,  
"retro" electronics, and thrift-store clothes. Trying to fit 3D-printing  
which seems to clam to be the apotheosis of "disposable culture" onto  
them I think is really going to be trying to force a square peg into a  
round hole.

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Saturday, 8 July 2017 13:53:07 UTC+1, bitrex  wrote:
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e  
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What goods do people typically use at home that are made of plastics:
storage containers, shelving, dustpan & brush, cookery tools, cutlery tray,
 bins, plumbing, a limited subset of tools eg spirit levels, clothing, pill
ows, mop & bucket, and a fairly wide assortment of practical/decorative ite
ms. Even lighting fittings now are often metal plated plastic.

A lot, clearly not all, of the above could be 3d printed. A lot more goods  
that aren't plastic could be and likely would be if they became much cheape
r than the alternatives.

A future printer (decades ahead) could scan discarded plastics for resin ID
 codes & foreign matter, chop it up into tiny pieces and either use the pow
der/chips or extrude it into filament. It could print, vapour polish & anne
al goods when desired. Maybe it could also metal plate them. Designs could  
be selected from websites much like shopping at Amazon, except you don't pa
y.

This approach might also go a step further. Instead of buying a dishwasher  
I might buy a dishwasher kit containing the unprintable parts, ie motors, c
ontrol board, switches, sensors & mains lead, and the rest get printed from

?280 plus some assembly time.

A lot of the future is unknown, but it's fair to expect 3d printing to beco
me a lot more capable and a lot cheaper over the years. That opens up new o
ptions.

As for retro goods, there are nowhere near enough of them to make much of a
 dent in the market for all types of new goods. It's more likely that some  
3d printing would be used to imitate historic designs.


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
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Not really, it's called amortisation, in this case of the cost of the fabricator.
"The process of reducing, or accounting for, an amount over a period according  
to a plan."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amortization

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And for mature fabrication technology.

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Name-calling isn't particularly useful in a discussion.
I'd justify my claim (that most people will be fabricating most things) by  
noting that when almost any technology becomes cheap enough, it becomes  
ubiquitous, and I'd cite computers, automobiles and printers as examples.

Your turn.

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Again, please justify that comment.


Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
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It is not name calling, it is my opinion of the concept of people fabricating
their own things.

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Milling machines, drill presses and lathes are quite cheap, especially when
compared to metal 3D printers, and are available at your local Harbor Freight
store.

How many people do you know that own any of the above?


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The concept of everyone making their own stuff went away hundreds of years
ago.

Today people making their own stuff is a hobby activity, even for things
as trivial as bread.


--  
Jim Pennino

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Saturday, 8 July 2017 18:16:10 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com  wrote:
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Those aren't automated, they all require user skill & time. So not a useful comparison.


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That's a very weak argument. Future 3d printing has fundamental large differences to home manufacture of previous centuries.


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 11:13:15 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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It takes skill and time to learn how to do mechanical design and even
to run a CNC machine.  Not to mention the investment - time valued
money.

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The economy of scale isn't there.  That's the whole driver behind the
industrial revolution.  3D printing isn't going to turn that clock
back.

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Saturday, 8 July 2017 23:51:03 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com  wrote:
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most things
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ears
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fferences to home manufacture of previous centuries.
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The movement from cottage to factory, ie the industrial revolution, allowed
 the skills of the few to be imparted to goods for the many. So it solved t
he variable skill problem, mostly. It also made production cheaper via expe
nsive high output machinery and people trained to do just one task.

Now fast forward to 3d printing. The skill set is in the files, when you cl
ick on a product you can see its appearance and see user comments - is it d
urable, does it work well, could it be improved etc. So the skill issue is  
solved, just in a different way. You can choose well designed competent pro
ducts.

Regarding labour, its cost is removed entirely. When you click the desired  
product, the machine does the rest. Of course that's not how it is today, b
ut there's every reason to believe in perhaps 30 years time 3d printing wil
l be that easy. All the choices are in the files, you need do nothing more  
than dump your household rubbish in the hopper and click on the product tha
t it shows you have the necessary materials and printer abilities for.

Thus it will be one more step forward in economic efficiency. And let's fac
e it, for all the babble about quality it's price that rules for a high per
centage of consumer purchases.


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 16:33:02 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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It also centralized the investment in tooling.  Something that your 3D
printing dream would have to turn around.

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But there is no economy of scale in this dream.  If each person is
going to modify the widget to suit his needs, he will also have to be
a mechanical engineer to make those changes.  That's not the way the
world works.

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The machine is free?  The consumables are free?  The education is
free?

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You've shown no evidence that there is any reduction in cost.  In
fact, you're adding to it by distributing the cost of manufacturing.

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Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Sunday, 9 July 2017 00:47:09 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com  wrote:
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rote:
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uy most things
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abricating
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ecomes  
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xamples.
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useful comparison.
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mple, if they
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f years
hings
 differences to home manufacture of previous centuries.
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wed the skills of the few to be imparted to goods for the many. So it solve
d the variable skill problem, mostly. It also made production cheaper via e
xpensive high output machinery and people trained to do just one task.
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It centralised investment in the entire manufacturing process: tooling, fac
tory, staff, transport, the lot. 3d printing could wipe out the factory, pa
id staff, transport & profit for those running the factory. That's most of  
the costs gone.


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 click on a product you can see its appearance and see user comments - is i
t durable, does it work well, could it be improved etc. So the skill issue  
is solved, just in a different way. You can choose well designed competent  
products.
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See above reply.  

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And it never will. In today's 3d printing only the minority alter designs,  
mostly products made are copies of existing designs. Roll that out to the m
ass market and that pattern continues, with a heavier emphasis on consumeri
sm than design.  

People already design & let others use their designs for free. Sites hostin
g such profit on the sidelines from advertising etc.


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ed product, the machine does the rest. Of course that's not how it is today
, but there's every reason to believe in perhaps 30 years time 3d printing  
will be that easy. All the choices are in the files, you need do nothing mo
re than dump your household rubbish in the hopper and click on the product  
that it shows you have the necessary materials and printer abilities for.
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Machines in 30 years will be cheaper & much more capable. If say a machine  
cost 200GBP (250USD) and could make all your household plastic goods includ
ing shelves, coffee tables, chairs, bathroom floor tiles & much more, it wo
uldn't make financial sense to not buy one. Same as today a car costs more  
than a horsecart, but no-one would choose a cart over a car, it doesn't mak
e economic or practical sense today.

Consumables are mostly household rubbish, so often free. No education is in
volved, as I've explained repeatedly.


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face it, for all the babble about quality it's price that rules for a high  
percentage of consumer purchases.
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No factories, no staff, no profit, no advertising, no delivery... whatever  
more do you want?


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 18:17:30 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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Yet you discount the investment/0pportunity cost and craning that
_everyone_ would have to make/absorb.
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Ditto.

So your comment about improving designs is moot.

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That's a great business model.

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Dream on.


So you're going to refine household waste to recover the consumables.
Why don't you just jump the Star Trek replicator.
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Wrong.  The "factories" are duplicated, 100 million times.

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
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Apples and oranges, they are nowhere as flexible as mature fabricator technology  
would be, nor as easy to use.

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Even making bread is more difficult than simply selecting a file, loading  
feedstock and pressing a button.

Besides, millions of people "make their own stuff" every day, although it's  
primarly digital content these days.




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