The secrets of eneloop batteries

Do you have a question? Post it now! No Registration Necessary

Translate This Thread From English to

Threaded View
The secrets of Eneloop batteries

In 2010 I bought a lot of Eneloop batteries,
and these are in everything I use, AAA and AA.

These rechargable batteries are supposed to have very low self discharge,
say still 80% full after a year, come charged, and are cool for in digital
camera,
as normal rechargables are always empty when you need them.

OK, some weeks ago, and I charge these with some Duracell charger,
one cause the LED on the charger to flash indicating 'bad battery'.
And indeed it would not even power my mp3 player.
I had spare, but last week the second and third caused the same problem.

So, I ordered new ones, but kept those 'defective' batteries.
Then yesterday, as I was very curious as to WHY those batteries 'failed',
and the new batteries came with a link to
 http://www.Eneloop.info/Eneloop.html
I realized it could not have been too many charge-discharge cycles...
So what?
Put one on the voltmeter, no voltage ???
Well measured if it still did any short circuit current: 530 mA (AAA).
that made no sense, no voltage - no current says Ohm.
Tried the next one, exactly the same!
Found voltmeter lead in probe was lose...
Soldered it, 1.something volt, same current.
That makes about 2 Ohm Ri, and not 20 milli Ohm as Eneloop claims.
So they must then be simply EMPTY????
OK, put one on the lab supply, 80 mA for 16 hours, and voila, full again and
working!
But I did notice I had, to get 80 mA into that AAA, set for 1.6V or higher
charging voltage.
Studying the Eneloop datasheets (same site under pulldown menu),
shows indeed that charging voltage may be as high as 1.7V for cold environment,
and 1.6 for room temperature.
The discharge voltage is normally higher than 1.2V, more like 1.28V for low
loads.
What I think happened is that the Duracell charger refused to charge above 1.5V,
and that the cell, in spite of being empty, needed that much voltage.
Or maybe me shorting it for the short circuit current test changed something in
the cell.
Anyways the things, with their higher output voltage than the normal 1.2V
make for much longer use in my camera.
But the claim that 'any' NiMH charger will charge them (>1000x) seems not
correct.
I will monitor these supposedly defective batteries for a while for self
discharge and
how long they last.
So far that seems pretty good (mp3 player running all day on one).
But battery chemistry will probably always be a bit of a mystery...



Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ries are supposed to have very low self discharge, say still 80% full after=
 a year, come charged, and are cool for in digital camera, as normal rechar=
gables are always empty when you need them. OK, some weeks ago, and I charg=
e these with some Duracell charger, one cause the LED on the charger to fla=
sh indicating 'bad battery'. And indeed it would not even power my mp3 play=
er. I had spare, but last week the second and third caused the same problem=
. So, I ordered new ones, but kept those 'defective' batteries. Then yester=
day, as I was very curious as to WHY those batteries 'failed', and the new =
batteries came with a link to http://www.Eneloop.info/Eneloop.html I realiz=
ed it could not have been too many charge-discharge cycles... So what? Put =
one on the voltmeter, no voltage ??? Well measured if it still did any shor=
t circuit current: 530 mA (AAA). that made no sense, no voltage - no curren=
t says Ohm. Tried the next one, exactly the same! Found voltmeter lead in p=
robe was lose... Soldered it, 1.something volt, same current. That makes ab=
out 2 Ohm Ri, and not 20 milli Ohm as Eneloop claims. So they must then be =
simply EMPTY???? OK, put one on the lab supply, 80 mA for 16 hours, and voi=
la, full again and working! But I did notice I had, to get 80 mA into that =
AAA, set for 1.6V or higher charging voltage. Studying the Eneloop datashee=
ts (same site under pulldown menu), shows indeed that charging voltage may =
be as high as 1.7V for cold environment, and 1.6 for room temperature. The =
discharge voltage is normally higher than 1.2V, more like 1.28V for low loa=
ds. What I think happened is that the Duracell charger refused to charge ab=
ove 1.5V, and that the cell, in spite of being empty, needed that much volt=
age. Or maybe me shorting it for the short circuit current test changed som=
ething in the cell. Anyways the things, with their higher output voltage th=
an the normal 1.2V make for much longer use in my camera. But the claim tha=
t 'any' NiMH charger will charge them (>1000x) seems not correct. I will mo=
nitor these supposedly defective batteries for a while for self discharge a=
nd how long they last. So far that seems pretty good (mp3 player running al=
l day on one). But battery chemistry will probably always be a bit of a mys=
tery...

I have had this problem with standard NiMH batteries and an automatic charg=
er. It seems to do some tests on the battery and when they get old or are s=
eldom used these tests start to fail even when the battery can still be cha=
rged and used.
I think it measures battery internal resistance and if too high deems it as=
 defective. I have another charger based on timer for these batteries. I ha=
ve found if you charge a battery for a while in another charger or power su=
pply then the automatic charger will accept the battery. Also if you let th=
em sit for long time unused their internal resistance seems to rise even wh=
en there is charge left, and when put back to daily use their internal resi=
stance lowers.

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries
Sanyo sells or provides a charger for ENELOOPs. When they first hit the
market, you got a plastic case that held batteries, the charger, and
some adapters where you could put a AA cell in where a C or D  cell
goes. Later they sold the batteries plus charger, but no plastic case.
Now they sell the charger and batteries separately.

I swear by ENELOOPs and use them everywhere. They are easily the best
rechargables I have ever used. I put them in alkaline packs for
transceivers (yes, I know, not kosher since the pack has no protector),
flashlights, etc.

For charger chips, the overvoltage limit is generally 2V per cell. I
suppose a manufacturer could get more aggressive if the charger didn't
have other safety circuitry.

This issue of using NiMH in place of alkalines has caused a few
manufacturers to put a resistor in series with the battery. I saw that
on my Petzl MYO headlamp.

I like ENELOOPs. They don't leak.

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries
Quoted text here. Click to load it

How should this be interpreted ??

If they were making money with these batteries and accessories they
would not have separated the package.

If they are making better money on the batteries alone, they would keep
the accessory package as a "starter kit".

What gives ??


Simply gouging the customer ??

hamilton


Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries
Quoted text here. Click to load it

It is called building the business. It is possible they lost money on
the initial sales with the expensive packaging and free charger. This is
common in all industries.

I never did the math, but the first version of a chip, assuming it even
could be sold from the first mask set, must cost a fortune. Even a lean
and mean organization can't pull off a chip design and run of wafers for
under a million today by the time you pay engineers, layout, buy
tooling, etc.

Cable news channels are classic business tales of dumping million after
million to build the business. CNN and FNC both lost money for their
first decade.




Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries

Quoted text here. Click to load it


   Sanyo no longer exists.  Panasonic bought them several years ago, and
stopped using the Sanyo name early this year.

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries
On a sunny day (Sun, 23 Sep 2012 15:11:01 -0400) it happened "Michael A.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

They still use the Sanyo name, its on the eneloop website:
 http://www.eneloop.info/eneloop.html
   'eneloop is a SANYO product'


Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries

Quoted text here. Click to load it


   So, they haven't updated the website.  Big deal.  Sanyo no longer
exists.

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries

Quoted text here. Click to load it


   Here is one of many news stories about the end of Sanyo:

<http://www.avinteractive.com/news/36654/sanyo-name-to-cease-by-april-1-2012-panasonic-tells-parters

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries
On a sunny day (Sun, 23 Sep 2012 16:01:07 -0400) it happened "Michael A.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

The date 'April 1' is a bit suspiciuos no?

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Idiot.

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries
On a sunny day (Sun, 23 Sep 2012 17:31:52 -0400) it happened

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Oh my god, did she have a head ache again??

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries

Quoted text here. Click to load it

No, you're not qualified.

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries

Quoted text here. Click to load it
><http://www.avinteractive.com/news/36654/sanyo-name-to-cease-by-april-1-2012-panasonic-tells-parters
Quoted text here. Click to load it


   The start of the second quarter is suspicious?  You've never owned a
real business.

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries
On a sunny day (Sun, 23 Sep 2012 18:25:08 -0400) it happened "Michael A.

Quoted text here. Click to load it
><http://www.avinteractive.com/news/36654/sanyo-name-to-cease-by-april-1-2012-panasonic-tells-parters
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Oh I did, but it must have escaped your undivided attention tha that article is
from September 2012,
refecting on some scribblings from 1012??? that as of April 1 2012 the name
Sanyo is no more.
It clearly is here, so that article is worth as much as the webpage.
I am not saying Panasonic does not have plans, just that article's analysis is
crap.

Reality, my batteries, their OWN website, proves you wrong on April one date.

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries
On a sunny day (Sun, 23 Sep 2012 15:56:10 -0400) it happened "Michael A.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Well, the eneloop batteries I just bought last week have SANYO written all over
them :-)

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries

Quoted text here. Click to load it
over them :-)


   Old stock. Like Motorola ICs.

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries
On a sunny day (Sun, 23 Sep 2012 18:25:44 -0400) it happened "Michael A.

Quoted text here. Click to load it
over them :-)
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Possible, but this guy ships a lot, and very fast, he only does batteries, so..
and this is his main product.

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries
On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 15:11:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Correct.


Panasonic and Sanyo were always very close.  IIRC, Sanyo was started by a
cousin.

Re: The secrets of eneloop batteries

Quoted text here. Click to load it


   Asian version of 'All in the family'? ;-)

Site Timeline