"Wall mounted, rechargeable lithium ion battery with liquid thermal control."
Tesla is already taking orders and their plant isn't even operational.
They already have mega $ order pledges from some big players...
Looks good at a glance. Nice appearance. Reasonable price, 7 and 10kWh $3 and 3.5k. DC voltage: 350-450 volts, but then we see, "AC-DC inverter not included." Whoa!
Elsewhere they say, "Tesla Energy solutions are turn-key, fully integrated systems."
--
Thanks,
- Win
Sounds silly.
They didn't mention the serious peak-time load, air conditioning.
It's ugly, like the car.
Liquid thermal control = water cooled?
-- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Hmm, 10kW hr = 36 MJ a few liters of gas.
It's says 92% DC - DC efficiency, I wonder how well you can do AC-DC-AC?
George H.
DOA, just like Tesla whose entire profits come from subsidies.
You can get the same or better results with WAY saner deep cycle lead- acid batteries or nickel-cadmium batteries.
The two other battery types are also indefinitely sustainable (there is only so much lithium), more environmentally friendly, safer and unlikely to spontaneously catch fire/explode, constitute well understood technology and are cheaper - a critical consideration once you realize you will need to replace the batteries every other year (lithium-ion and lead-acid) or every four years (nickel-cadmium). They also don't need "liquid thermal control", whatever that is.
I would personally go with nickel-cadmium for its optimality, if only I could find a retail distributor for large, powerful and many-celled batteries of the type.
And once you realize that same [redacted] EU commissioner forbade the production and use of nickel-cadmium batteries in the EU, you start to weep.
Profits?
I suspect that the entire subsidized, wonder-boy-Musk empire will collapse some day.
I did finally see a Tesla plugged in at a charging station! Not this one, which I've never seen used:
Sounds like water cooling. So it's once-through, or it has fans and radiators.
-- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
If they can hold the battery to a constant fixed-value temperature while charging, it will not only extend the life of the batteries, but simplify the charging electronics as well. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Yuck. The major benefit is load leveling, where peak power comes from the storage battery which should help with time of use billing. That's the same logic being used to sell solar panels, which deliver the most power during the heat of the day, when the demand for electricity is at its peak.
However, LiIon batteries have a problem. They don't last very long sitting at full charge, nearly discharged, or in a hot environment: The heat problem can be solved by cooling, but where to you thermal sink the heat if the outside temperature is hotter than what the battery prefers? Liquid thermal control means either air conditioning or an underground heat pump, both of which can be a significant energy drain.
For the high and low state of charge problems, one could use Toyota's approach in the Prius, and simply not use all of the capacity of the battery. That theoretically extends the battery life past 10 years, but requires a larger battery. Many laptop manufacturers offer a reduced battery charge level to extend battery life.
I haven't worked out the efficiency of the: Grid->DC->battery>inverter->AC cycle yet, but offhand, it looks tolerable, if I ignore the power required to cool the battery pile.
However, ignoring the technology, there's also the problem of the various electrical codes, which are required for utility interconnects, insurance approval, fire protection, safety issues, etc. While these are necessary evils to make sure that nobody gets killed by the PowerWall, regulatory approval does constitute a major obstacle to widespread deployment. It took about 10 years for the NFPA to even recognize home solar power installations. I wonder how long this one will take?
Personally, if all one needs is some power during the heat of the day, then a solar concentrator, steam generator, and alternator are all that's needed. Works great, except for the NIMBY problem.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
And if they can keep it warm in the dead of winter, it will return most of that charging energy.
-- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Nickel Iron is good if space isn't a big issue. They can last for decades, and their relatively poor charge retention wouldn't matter in this application. I wouldn't much enjoy a house fire with a load of Lithium Polymer batteries hanging on the wall, and I doubt the fire service would be too impressed.
Cheers
-- Syd
10 kW-hr is like a few bucks of electricity. Are the on-peak prices in California such that this could ever pay for itself? Maybe this is mostly so people can feel good about themselves.
George H.
Probably isn't necessary for temperature to be a fixed-value, just uniform thru-out the pack and known to the charging controller. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
I suspect the bigger issue is being able to go *off* grid. E.g., here, electric companies have pushed through a tariff that allows them to charge "solar" homes an additional $20-$50/month for the "privilege" of *also* being connected to the grid.
When most homes are using the grid to "store" surplus power, they can rationalize this sort of fee ("they are providing a service"). If the homeowner can store the surplus electricity on-site, then what rationale is there for the fee (i.e., "cut the wire").
Other utilities are pushing similar issues through. E.g., we "donated" $30 to the gas company last month because "it wasn't cold enough" (i.e., our consumption was less than they'd hoped!)
A Tesla car won't charge below 0C, and range is limited when cold.
Of course there's a fix: a plug-in battery heater!
Install the Tesla Powerwall in your bedroom and you'll be OK.
-- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
That way lies madness! I charge you X because you haven't bought my product.
Jeroen Belleman
No. The pitch line is mostly beneficial to the electric utilities, where it allows them to defer adding additional capacity. Much depends on which electric tier, which billing plan, and what time of year.
PG&E Billing plans:
This is old, from 2008, but is all that I could find. Residential E-6 TOU (time of use) rates: Total Energy Rates $ per kWh PEAK PART-PEAK OFF-PEAK Summer Baseline Usage $0.32306 $0.20779 $0.13101 101% - 130% of Baseline $0.34627 $0.23100 $0.15423 131% - 200% of Baseline $0.43368 $0.31841 $0.24163 201% - 300% of Baseline $0.49368 $0.37841 $0.30163 Over 300% of Baseline $0.49368 $0.37841 $0.30163 Winter Baseline Usage $0.15218 $0.13535 101% - 130% of Baseline $0.17539 $0.15856 131% - 200% of Baseline $0.26280 $0.24597 201% - 300% of Baseline $0.32280 $0.30597 Over 300% of Baseline $0.32280 $0.30597
Those that will benefit most are high usage (Tier 3 and 4) consumers. During summer, the differential between peak and off-peak for Tier 4 users is: $0.49368 - $0.30163 = $0.1921 or about 20 cents savings per kw-hr. If I were a big time home electricity user, that might use 300 kw-hr/month in Tiers 3 and 4, that would a net savings of about: 300 kw-hr * 0.1921 = $57.62/month or $57.62 * 12 = $691/year to switch to time of use billing. By charging the battery pile during off-peak hours, and using it during peak hours, one gets most of this savings.
Presumably, the PowerWall will only be used during peak hours. If someone has an "all electric" home, that uses electricity for heating, they will get less relative savings from time of use because peak power is mostly during mid-day.
All too true. I know of several solar installations that were purchased for reasons other than economics. A few of them were so badly positioned as to only work during the summer. Many might break even in perhaps 20+ years. Most will involve unexpected expenses, such as broken panel replacment, roof resurfacing, and non-availability of replacement micro-inverters. I do the math for people, and they buy solar anyway, often because one of their friends has one. I suppose the PowerWall will be much of the same.
However, that is roughly the right question to ask. Whenever I see anything happen that is odd, I ask myself "what problem are they trying to solve"? In this case, the problem is that the cost of the GigaFactory is so high, that Elon Musk needs to find other customers and uses for the batteries because electric cars are apparently not going to generate sufficient profit to cover the construction costs. I suspect that he's already talking to the electric utilities, electric utility vehicle manufacturers, golf carts mfg, backup power system mfg, electric bicycles, etc.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Such are the benefits of living in Californica >:-}
My rates (summer):
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Of course. However, one is expected to pay for infrastructure, expansion, maintenance, insurance. Utilities just love flat rate charging, where one pays whether we pay even if we use no power/gas/water.
A good example is the local water company. I pay about $30/month for the service, and about $0.50 for what little water I consume. I pointed out that this provided no incentive to reduce my water use as increased consumption would not affect my charges. It's much the same with electricity, except that electric use charges are a much larger percentage of the total bill. Unlike my water bill, my electric usage does have a big effect on the bottom line.
As more and more people are reducing their electric consumption by various means, the utilities have the choice of increasing the service charge portion of the bill, or raising rates. It's difficult to justify an increase in service charges, because decreased consumption does not require any infrastructure construction. Rate changes are equally unpalatable because nobody likes paying for someone else's savings. So, the utilities have resorted to "user fees", such as charging for grid tied solar. Eventually, I expect them to follow the local water company model, and simply flat rate the service, and charge very little for the electricity, thus making alternative energy schemes uneconomical unless one pulls the plug completely.
Bottom line: We're all doomed, but nobody notices because we're having so much fun getting there.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Some of the PR mentions bi-directional inverter and transfer switch come in at about same price as battery, labor not included.
I'm willing to pay for the privledge of living in paradise.
Not so big a difference if you include consumption and average the rates: Calif: $0.1523 Natl Avg: $0.1045 Arizona: $0.1024
More fun with numbers: Pull down the "Change Data Set" and select "Average Retail Price of Electricity". Under reports, the "5.3 Average Retail Price to Consumers..." is interesting. Lots of other pretty graphs and reports.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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