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Re: Tesla Batteries
On 15/01/2019 19:03, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wrote:
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In Norway, the standard is to have resistive heating for most of the
year, and open the windows for cooling.  In the last decade or so,
air-to-air heat pumps have been a common addition for many, but not
ground-based heat pumps.  (The ground is mostly very hard rock, so
installation would be costly - and electricity is cheap here.)  Wood
fires are also used, mostly because people like them rather than for
efficient heating.

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Icelanders live.  90% of buildings in Iceland are heated this way, using
hot water that is a by-product of the geothermic powerstations.

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 17:18:05 +0000, Martin Brown

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You're wrong, of course.  Your normal operating mode.

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Wrong again but we all knew that too.

Re: Tesla Batteries

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Absurd.  They work fine, though the output temperature problem is
real.  Our downstairs unit failed a couple of weeks ago.  After making
a few more ozone holes, it's dead again so we're going to have to
replace it but "failing as soon as it gets cold"?  Stupid.

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Different subject.

<irrelevance snipped>

Re: Tesla Batteries
On 1/12/2019 4:00 PM, Steve Wilson wrote:
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How did you get the metal flat?  I was never able to get it flat/stable  
enough to work.
I ended up with coroplast instead.  I opted for the higher efficiency
of counter-flow.  Was worried about the thermal conductivity of the
plastic, but it worked quite well.
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Re: Tesla Batteries
On 2019-01-12 16:00, Steve Wilson wrote:

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How do you work around the laws of thermodynamics? The best outcome is
that your heat-recovered incoming air is at the mean of the indoor and
outdoor temperature, so you might recover some heat but the "efficiency"
of your device can never exceed 50%.

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 1:40:37 PM UTC-5, +++ATH0 wrote:
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he  
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 air  
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Heat exchangers work by passing the two heat sink flows in opposite directi
ons.  So the cold air is warmed gradually eventually meeting the incoming h
ottest air and the hot air is cooled gradually eventually meeting the incom
ing cold air so both streams can approach the temperature of the other.  Th
ere is always losses and there has to be a temperature delta to make the he
at flow, so you never get it all, but you can get a lot of it.  

  Rick C.

  ++- Get 6 months of free supercharging
  ++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:29:11 +0000, Martin Brown

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I would be surprised if big users would be dropped off during a cold
snap, when everything works normally.

However, if all production capacity is in use, in a well designed
network, it should still survive a loss of the largest production
unit.  With the spinning reserve and fast starting emergency gas
turbines,it takes some time (15-60 min) before the network could
survive the loss of next big power plant.  However, if the second big
unit is lost before all emergency units are feeding the network, this
is a catastrophic situation.

In order to save the network, part of the load must be immediately
dropped e.g. by cutting electricity to a big city. In developing
countries rolling blackouts are common, cutting the electric feed for
an hour or two rolling sequentially from city to city.

The idea with industrial disconnect agreement is to just change the
priority, in which loads are first dropped. From the society point of
view it is better to drop a big industrial load than dropping big
cities.

I would expect that such industrial agreements to be actually used
during one or two days a year, when a big power station is lost during
peak load.


Re: Tesla Batteries
On 01/10/19 09:29, Martin Brown wrote:

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Far too high for lead acid and would probably degrade li pretty
fast too. Built a battery array here years ago, ex telco, lead
acid batteries, 48 volt system. Ran it during the day to reduce
grid load, then charge at night using off peak tariff. Interesting
experiment, but in no way did it pay for itself.

Pro grade lead acid gel cell tech usually has a design life of
5 years under float conditions, but far less even at 0.1 rating
under cycled conditions. Came to the conclusion it was a
compete waste of money, as is solar or wind for domestic use.
Total cost of ownership, payback time, failure rates etc. A
fools errand...

Chris

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 7:44:10 PM UTC-5, Chris wrote:
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Residential solar seems to work for many people if planned appropriately.  Have you looked at the numbers?  Where did you get your data?  

  Rick C.

  --+- Get 6 months of free supercharging
  --+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On 01/13/19 01:28, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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I guess they would say that, after shelling out thousands on the
system. Even with the uk feedin tariff, where home solar was
paid a premium for surplus, it still took around 15-20 years to
break even on the original cost. That doesn't take into account
panel failure, which can cost up to 1000ukp to replace, scaffolding
etc and that's if the original installer is still in business and
can be found. Also, reduction in output by 5-10% per annum. Typical
load factor, ie: name plate rating vs actual op averaged over
a year is rarely better than 10% here in the uk

Plan to install solar at some stage, but it will be home built and
installed, depending on a good deal on the panels. As for the data,
various reports, including from the uk government on things like
load factor, initial cost, reliability etc. For some here, little
more than a virtue signalling exercise for the hipsters, while
they pay through the nose for it.

Not against it, but it has make sense economically and wild optimism
doesn't make the sun shine :-)...

Chris




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Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 1:19:47 PM UTC-5, Chris wrote:
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y.  Have you looked at the numbers?  Where did you get your data?
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There are people here in this group who have solar panels and can tell you  
exactly how well they are working.  The UK has a very different climate tha
n here.  In fact, the US is large enough to have very different climates ac
ross the country.  They are installing commercial PV solar where I am in ce
ntral VA which is east coast and not particularly sunny like the desert.  R
esidential is not subsidized, but since you can reduce your bill kilowatt f
or kilowatt it is easy to make a solar system pay for itself.  

You sure sound like you are dead against it.  Why can't you see that the nu
mbers work differently for other people than yourself?  

  Rick C.

  +-+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  +-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On 01/13/19 19:50, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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you exactly how well they are working.  The UK has a very different climate

than here.  In fact, the US is large enough to have very different climates

across the country.  They are installing commercial PV solar where I am in

central VA which is east coast and not particularly sunny like the desert.

Residential is not subsidized, but since you can reduce your bill kilowatt

for kilowatt it is easy to make a solar system pay for itself.
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I'm sure they might be, but have had these discussions, even on The
Guardian pages many times in the past, usually to rebut some outrageous
claim from some snake oil solar company. Only have to show them the math  
and they give up. Waving arms around about saving money is not fact
and usually involves ignoring capital cost, depreciation, maintenance
etc. Anyway, let's hear of other's experiences.

 > You sure sound like you are dead against it.  Why can't you see that  
the numbers work differently for other people than yourself?

I'm not against it at all, just the opposite, but it has to make sense
from an economic point of view. Done the sums for solar on many
occasions and the killer is the payback time, 15 to 20 years for a
typical 4 Kw system here in the uk. May be different in the US and
if so, good luck to you. My interest is more natural gas powered chp,  
with a small engine to drive a generator, with heat recovery and
electrical boiler for heating and load balancing. Will build it one
day...

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Re: Tesla Batteries
On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 7:52:49 PM UTC-5, Chris wrote:
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We will have to wait for the guy here to post his info if he is even readin
g the thread.  So why is a 15 year break even so terrible?  If it breaks ev
en and prevents some environmental damage, what's wrong with that?  I guess
 you don't factor in all the numbers, eh?  

What is "chp"?  I've seen systems that generate electricity and heat.  I be
lieve they call that co-generation.  But it is very expensive and at differ
ent times the fuel cost can be very unreasonable.  We used to pay twice as  
much for fuel here and we may still return to those very high prices before
 EVs drop the cost of petroleum.  Natural gas is only an option if you have
 that in the ground with is the minority here.  

Whatever.  You seem to be on a path defined by what you think is best for y
ou in the short term.  Your burning natural gas is not what is best for eve
ryone including your descendants.  Eventually it will be more economical to
 use alternative fuels because they are going to tax all fuels according to
 the pollution they produce and the total impact.  

  Rick C.  

  -+-+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  -+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On 2019-01-14 17:34, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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Combined Heat and Power. Co-gen. Same difference.

With heat engines typically struggling around the 30% thermal efficiency
mark, you typically end up with a great deal more heat than power.

Typically only used to recover high-grade waste heat from power
generation where it makes sense because you also need heat, like steam
for hospitals that have a gas turbine for offline/emergency power, or
communal heating schemes. The heat is just a bonus.


Re: Tesla Batteries
wrote:

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When NG is more expensive than coal, you have to get most out of the
gas. Some systems burn gas in gas turbines, the exhausts go to a steam
boiler feeding a steam turbine. Part of the steam is used to generate
district heating. In some cases part of the district heating return
water runs through tubing under the city center sidewalk to keep the
sidewalk ice free. The cooled water is then fed into steam turbine
condenser to maximize the Carnot efficiency,


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The problem with CHP is often that the power and heat demand doesn't
always match e.g. during winter or summer.

Of course, if the CHP plant is running only during the winter, the
city is fed with district heat pipes and at larger distance from the
city, electricity is used for electric heating. This way the district
heating and electric demand both  depend of the air temperature.



Re: Tesla Batteries
On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 09:07:56 +0000, Martin Brown

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Simple gas turbines are cheap, but the fuel cost may be significant,
if you have to run them at more than a few hundred hours each year.

The great advantage of battery packs is that it can immediately react
to loss of production capacity of rapid increase in demand. Thus 15-30
minute storage capacity is enough so that you can get gas turbines
started. This also reduces the need for spinning reserve in
continuously running power plants.

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While pumping storage is possible only in Scotland, but gas turbines
could be installed everywhere as long as there are nearby pipelines.
The North Sea oil and gas fields feeds these pipelines.
  

Re: Tesla Batteries
On 10/01/2019 07:03, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wrote:
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I thought fracking had made gas prices plummet. UK has certainly had a  
"dash for gas" in the past couple of decades incredibly short termism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash_for_Gas
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I can see that adding a certain amount of this to the mix might save a  
bit on spinning reserve wear and tear.
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The UK's biggest pumped storage is actually in Wales. I knew one of the  
engineers who worked on it. Dinorwig is a 1.7GW plant.

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/issues/march-2015-digi-issue/pumped-storage-a-new-project-for-wales/

It is thirty years old and only now are they thinking about adding more  
despite having a far more volatile mix of renewables on the grid.

--  
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 5:05:55 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
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"Cheap" is a relative term.  Gas isn't a tenth the cost of other fuels.  So
 the operation of a gas turbine is still dominated by the cost of the fuel  
when run significantly.  Because of the peak demand issue they are often on
ly run for a few hours a day if at all.  Then the capital cost of the plant
 is the issue.  


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Or completely eliminate the need for some number of peak generating plants.
  


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s
  
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-a-new-project-for-wales/
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I wonder about the cost compared to battery generation.  Any idea?  I expec
t it would be cheaper if you have the geography for it.  But it can consume
 a lot of land depending on the elevation you have to work with.  


  Rick C.

  -+- Get 6 months of free supercharging
  -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 6:03:45 PM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wrote:
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And Wales.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station

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And the UK is full of domestic gas-fired central-heating and hot-water system.

The country is covered by a natural gas distribution network.

You don't actually need mountains for pumped water storage, and pumped compressed air storage is even easier to accommodate.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Re: Tesla Batteries
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e were not designed to power anything. "

I had to look that up. No, what he was considering is using actual Tesla ca
r batteries.  

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I understand that. But one of the main questions I guess I didn't phrase ri
ght is if a Tesla CAR battery can be charged slowly, because it is not what
 you can get form the 240 volt line in the garage. No matter what charge ra
te the controller would set, the input must be greater than the output. (ex
cept in that other universe) Would it hurt to charge too slowly ? The only  
reason to even think about designing a charger it because it may be that th
e normal charger cannot be run on too low a current, or voltage depending..
. Perhaps the usual charger with a bypass to get it to a certain point wher
e it will rune ? Something like that.  

This is new to me, but I don't scare easily. My main concern is the life of
 the batteries, after the power demands are met.  

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really bad way to design a charge controller. "

Which is why I am here. How much does it take to charge these things ? I me
an, what do they LIKE ?  

If I have to go store boughten so be it. But, well you know. Do those specs
 exist somewhere on the net or are they a trade secret or something ? If no
t, maybe a regular charger could be bought and what it does measured. In fa
ct just having that could come in handy. Maybe it barely keeps up, and if r
un down takes a week to charge. But then there is the option to just drive  
up to a charging station and boom, there's the power again. Would like to a
void that if possible but to have the option is good.  

And of course he wants to be off the grid but on the net, that is a whole n
ew ball of wax, though I know it can be done.  

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I copied all those links and will read them later. (before doing anything o
f course)

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instead spend some time carefully measuring your current power
consumption ..."

Problem is there is no current power consumption to measure. We are discuss
ing all kinds of options for that. For example he probably will want a micr
owave, if we do that a modern fridge ain't shit. In no way do I pretend wan
t to put pencil to paper without a hell of alot more information. I also kn
ow that there are needed numbers even before contemplating a store boughten
 system. Off the shelf so to speak.  

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more difficult it is to build a usable solar power system. "

He intends to go mostly south. There will be A/C but that will be separate  
on a generator. In fact a big enough generator might even run an AC operate
d charger as rated... Hmmm.

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