you exactly how well they are working. The UK has a very different climate
than here. In fact, the US is large enough to have very different climates
across the country. They are installing commercial PV solar where I am in
central VA which is east coast and not particularly sunny like the desert.
Residential is not subsidized, but since you can reduce your bill kilowatt
for kilowatt it is easy to make a solar system pay for itself.
I'm sure they might be, but have had these discussions, even on The Guardian pages many times in the past, usually to rebut some outrageous claim from some snake oil solar company. Only have to show them the math and they give up. Waving arms around about saving money is not fact and usually involves ignoring capital cost, depreciation, maintenance etc. Anyway, let's hear of other's experiences.
I'm not against it at all, just the opposite, but it has to make sense from an economic point of view. Done the sums for solar on many occasions and the killer is the payback time, 15 to 20 years for a typical 4 Kw system here in the uk. May be different in the US and if so, good luck to you. My interest is more natural gas powered chp, with a small engine to drive a generator, with heat recovery and electrical boiler for heating and load balancing. Will build it one day...
We will have to wait for the guy here to post his info if he is even readin g the thread. So why is a 15 year break even so terrible? If it breaks ev en and prevents some environmental damage, what's wrong with that? I guess you don't factor in all the numbers, eh?
What is "chp"? I've seen systems that generate electricity and heat. I be lieve they call that co-generation. But it is very expensive and at differ ent times the fuel cost can be very unreasonable. We used to pay twice as much for fuel here and we may still return to those very high prices before EVs drop the cost of petroleum. Natural gas is only an option if you have that in the ground with is the minority here.
Whatever. You seem to be on a path defined by what you think is best for y ou in the short term. Your burning natural gas is not what is best for eve ryone including your descendants. Eventually it will be more economical to use alternative fuels because they are going to tax all fuels according to the pollution they produce and the total impact.
Rick C.
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I started another thread because this one is going into too much other shit. Not that anything is wrong with that, just that there are going to be some developments on this soon.
I know I have some learning to do and I am loving every minute of it. Don't worry, I am not going to blow up the batteries.
I'll still follow this thread, no doubt. In fact I am going to go through it like tomorrow and see what I find. I'll be around. Thanks for all so far, except for the "don't". When people tell me don't it strengthens my resolve to "do".
I will build that SEPIC based charger and it will be more efficient than what is available. Well OK, there might be something as good but I bet it is nowhere near free...
Once the SPIC final stage is figured out the rest is in the feedback loop. Simple. I can handle that.
We get about a week below that each year but most of the Winter has daytime lows around freezing with daytime highs in the 40s and 50s. Gas, where available, is certainly preferable to a heat pump but it's typically only available in the cities (I live about 40mi from midtown and more or less in the sticks). Some use gas as auxiliary heat for heat pumps, as well. Electric rates are pretty low (electric heating rates are $.07/kWh).
I called the heat in my previous house (also a heat pump) "forced cold air".
It's a *lot* of money and a *long* payback, if ever.
It is a good faith estimate. Knowing that you can't do the work is not "good faith".
?F enough that it would make straight electric backup heat unrealistic. Lots of people do that here too, VA/MD, but I think it's on the cusp. By t he time you get to NY you need to have some other backup heat to make it af fordable and then you need to consider the system cost. My heatpump/oil bu rner cost $7,000 while a heatpump/electric backup was $5,000. Here you'd b e lucky to get your money out of the oil burner. In NY it's a slam dunk. It also seems to produce better heat... actually warm.
Gas is available where someone paid to run the pipes. There are plenty of homes in the city where there is no gas and a friend has gas 20 miles from any city in rural Tennessee.
$0.07 is cheap for electricity. Does that include all the per kWh charges, generation, transmission and distribution? My local utility recently chan ged their rates to double the fixed price to $20 a month and also raised th e distribution charges a bit. They said our bills won't change much becaus e the cost of generation is dropping! lol
Early heat pumps were anemic things that didn't warm the air up much above room temp. Blow it around a little and it feels cold. My latest heat pump feels warm coming out of the ducts.
be very cost effective. I would need to see numbers associated with any g iven installation, but I didn't choose a different system because of the co st. I didn't buy the ground-sourced system because they wouldn't quote me a number. They expected me to sign a contract to do the work regardless of what the cost turned out to be. Looking back, I should have gotten them t o bid the contract in two portions, the fixed price, well defined work part and the variable cost, don't know how much work it will be part.
a ground-system can save you, but it will be more than just not using expe nsive backup heat. They are cheaper to run all year long.
Still waiting to hear from our resident solar owner.... Facts rather than everyone's estimates.
open contract that I didn't think to discuss it further and asked him to l eave.
that is binding.
I don't know anyone "knew" they couldn't do the work. The point is you can 't even begin to expect to hold anyone to an estimate. That's why they cal l it an "estimate". Read the contract or don't, but that's what's binding.
Rick C.
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Nobody in their right mind uses resistive electric heating except for short bursts to quickly warm up a room.
Ground source heating in the UK sort of works (better than air source which just freezes up solid) but the running, maintainance and servicing costs are extortionate. I know someone who installed it and their total heating bills are now more than when they had classical oil fired CH. (including the cost of keeping the contraption working)
They ought to have been a text book case where it should have been able to deliver since they are retired and in the house most days.
Where I live you would have to go about 1km down to get 20C rocks or 30C at 2km down. That is a distinctly non-trivial drilling depth.
In the middle of Yellowstone or Iceland you might be onto a winner.
Resistive heating is very common in Finland, not to mention Norway. After rainy years, there is a lot of hydro, so the prices have been down. Unfortunately due to the action of the greenies and after dry years, the prices have increased significantly, so a lot air-to-air heat pumps have been installed. This helps a lot during spring and autumn.
You do not need such high temperatures for a ground sourced heat pumps. 0-5 C ground water temperature is enough. You have to make sure that the well is deep enough compared to the heat demand or the ground water will freeze, thus preventing any heat transfer. For a big apartment building, you will need to drill several wells to satisfy the heat demand.
In Iceland, some district heating consists of a hot water pocket deep down in the ground, simple plastic pipes going to the houses and the mildly warm water is simply released into the environment.
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 1:03:15 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wr ote:
"Greenies"? Greenlanders control the price of electricity in Iceland? A n ew expression is born, "What's that got to do with the price of hydro in Ic eland?"
Why would ground water be so cold? Do you mean surface water? Around here the temperature of both the ground and underground water at 30 feet is con
?C).
Works great for heating... what about cooling?
Rick C.
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Unfortunately it doesn't contain data for Alaska. After all, the Nordic countries are at the same latitude as Alaska. I live at the same latitude as Anchorage.
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 2:30:31 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wr ote:
r 30C
re
nd
here the temperature of both the ground and underground water at 30 feet i s constant and only slightly below room temperature year round, 60? (15?).
If you examine the map carefully you will see that latitude is not the only factor in determining the ground temperature. Alaska and the Nordic count ries have very different climates and so are not likely to have much in com mon regarding ground and water temperatures. Geography also seems to be a significant factor.
This page does show useful information for understanding the issues. I'm s ure the data is available for any first world country.
Rick C.
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Higher density means that the gas company has more incentive to run the lines. When I was in VT, the gas company agreed to run the lines up our street and connect everyone if _everyone_ agreed to connect. Such a deal but some moron decided to stay with LP (the rest of us used oil). The gas company ran the lines anyway.
Yes. Only during heating season for those who heat with electricity. The "summer rate" is $.10, IIRC. Still cheap.
This wasn't an early heat pump. The house was built in 2008. We were the first owners.
That makes solar cheaper (though I was referring to ground-source heat pumps - same deal).
. Lots of people do that here too, VA/MD, but I think it's on the cusp. B y the time you get to NY you need to have some other backup heat to make it affordable and then you need to consider the system cost. My heatpump/oil burner cost $7,000 while a heatpump/electric backup was $5,000. Here you' d be lucky to get your money out of the oil burner. In NY it's a slam dunk . It also seems to produce better heat... actually warm.
of homes in the city where there is no gas and a friend has gas 20 miles fr om any city in rural Tennessee.
es, generation, transmission and distribution? My local utility recently c hanged their rates to double the fixed price to $20 a month and also raised the distribution charges a bit. They said our bills won't change much bec ause the cost of generation is dropping! lol
ve room temp. Blow it around a little and it feels cold. My latest heat p ump feels warm coming out of the ducts.
Ok, so "builder" quality in heat pumps still suck. My current unit is a re placement. In the intervening 20 years the government mandated a certain l evel of efficiency and I paid for an extra level above that. My heat pump throws out actual warm air. Not like a oil burner, but even the register f eels warm to the feet when I step on it. It also has a two level fan but I don't get how that helps much other than maybe not blowing cold air when t rying to squeeze out every last drop of heat when the compressor shuts off.
uld be very cost effective. I would need to see numbers associated with an y given installation, but I didn't choose a different system because of the cost. I didn't buy the ground-sourced system because they wouldn't quote me a number. They expected me to sign a contract to do the work regardless of what the cost turned out to be. Looking back, I should have gotten the m to bid the contract in two portions, the fixed price, well defined work p art and the variable cost, don't know how much work it will be part.
de
ost a ground-system can save you, but it will be more than just not using e xpensive backup heat. They are cheaper to run all year long.
an everyone's estimates.
Not sure what happened. Maybe I was discussing the solar with someone else .
We aren't likely to get any real data on the ground sourced heat pump from anyone here, but didn't you say the same thing applied to solar, taking eve rything into account the pay back was potentially non-existent? I wouldn't care if it was the system lifetime. That means it was a breakeven and we all get the benefit of not making as much electricity from carbon sources.
an open contract that I didn't think to discuss it further and asked him t o leave.
at
as
act that is binding.
can't even begin to expect to hold anyone to an estimate. That's why they call it an "estimate". Read the contract or don't, but that's what's bindi ng.
Ok, I don't know what you are talking about now. So go on without me.
Rick C.
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A new expression is born, "What's that got to do with the price of hydro in Iceland?"
ce
icing
otal
H.
able
as
e.
your
ve
r 30C
re
nd
here the temperature of both the ground and underground water at 30 feet i s constant and only slightly below room temperature year round, 60? (15?).
p
ing
I would like to use the lake water here, but I know they have a rule agains t taking water out of the lake. I don't know if they would refuse to let m e drop radiators in the lake for cooling or heating. I could put them unde r the dock to stay out of others way and protect them from harm. I'm not s ure what the temperature is six or so feet down but in the summer it has to
the air, so there's a time when you want to switch from heating to cooling and vice versa and the water will be lagging enough that it would be prett y optimal.
I bet this could be made to work pretty easily. I'll have to look into it when the current system gets a little older.
Rick C.
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With heat engines typically struggling around the 30% thermal efficiency mark, you typically end up with a great deal more heat than power.
Typically only used to recover high-grade waste heat from power generation where it makes sense because you also need heat, like steam for hospitals that have a gas turbine for offline/emergency power, or communal heating schemes. The heat is just a bonus.
When NG is more expensive than coal, you have to get most out of the gas. Some systems burn gas in gas turbines, the exhausts go to a steam boiler feeding a steam turbine. Part of the steam is used to generate district heating. In some cases part of the district heating return water runs through tubing under the city center sidewalk to keep the sidewalk ice free. The cooled water is then fed into steam turbine condenser to maximize the Carnot efficiency,
The problem with CHP is often that the power and heat demand doesn't always match e.g. during winter or summer.
Of course, if the CHP plant is running only during the winter, the city is fed with district heat pipes and at larger distance from the city, electricity is used for electric heating. This way the district heating and electric demand both depend of the air temperature.
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