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Re: Tesla Batteries
On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 5:02:40 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
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The age of your infrastructure is not the issue.  We are discussing shutdow
ns due to daily usage peaks.  


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This is good, but limited.  There is only a week of useful info and that is
 hard to view.  The daily graph is just for one day which makes it hard to  
discern a clear pattern.  It appears there are two peak, morning and evenin
g with the evening peak being more pronounced.  

What is clear from this data is that there is a period of 8 to 10 hours whe
n demand is at a minimum.  Shutting down industry that must run 24 hours a  
day is clearly not the right thing to do.  Rather industry that currently r
uns in the day time but can instead run at night is the load that needs to  
be time shifted and potentially not shut down at all.  


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? on
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See my comment above regarding the timing of load shedding.  


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Sounds like something that should be addressed.  


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Then that is either not a peak usage issue, but rather a total generation c
apacity issue or someone is full of BS.  If the country is not willing to b
uild generation capacity then there will be electrical shortages.  I bet a  
lot of people still have kerosene lamps, lol!  


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Yeah, until they don't work at all!!!  

Why is it that the UK is in the mess.  Clearly a complete planning failure.
  


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Yeah, what's your point?  That there is no realistic planning in the UK?  


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I'm not real clear on the connection to winter cold.  I thought you didn't  
use electricity for heating?  


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If a load can't be shut down during the peak times, then don't shut it down
.  Which industries can be shed only during the peak times?  

Actually I think many of your industries can be shut down during peak times
.  They used to have an aluminum electrolysis plant near here and a friend  
who worked there said they could ramp it up and down pretty much at will.  
He told me how once there was some reason for the crew to hump and they inc
reased production by some large amount for one shift and one shift only.  T
hat means proportionally higher power consumption.  So clearly if it can be
 ramped up over one shift it can be scaled back over one shift.  


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Not sure what p and c are.  Here it varies with region but a number I often
 see is $0.12 average.  What is a standing charge?  


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Not when the goal is to save money.  If the unit is outdoors it also needs  
to be cooled in the summer.  More money.  They typically talk about garage  
installation, but then my garages are not heated either, but one is in a ba
sement which is not subject to the outside extremes.  If they insulate for  
winter then they need an active cooling system.  

  Rick C.

  --++ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  --++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Monday, 14 January 2019 15:31:40 UTC, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:
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y  
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owns due to daily usage peaks.  
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is hard to view.  The daily graph is just for one day which makes it hard t
o discern a clear pattern.  It appears there are two peak, morning and even
ing with the evening peak being more pronounced.  
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hen demand is at a minimum.  Shutting down industry that must run 24 hours  
a day is clearly not the right thing to do.  Rather industry that currently
 runs in the day time but can instead run at night is the load that needs t
o be time shifted and potentially not shut down at all.  
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 ? on
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 capacity issue or someone is full of BS.  If the country is not willing to
 build generation capacity then there will be electrical shortages.  I bet  
a lot of people still have kerosene lamps, lol!  
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e.  
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s  
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e  
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t use electricity for heating?  
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a  
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wn.  Which industries can be shed only during the peak times?  
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es.  They used to have an aluminum electrolysis plant near here and a frien
d who worked there said they could ramp it up and down pretty much at will.
  He told me how once there was some reason for the crew to hump and they i
ncreased production by some large amount for one shift and one shift only.  
 That means proportionally higher power consumption.  So clearly if it can  
be ramped up over one shift it can be scaled back over one shift.  
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en see is $0.12 average.  What is a standing charge?  
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o  
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e  
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s to be cooled in the summer.  More money.  They typically talk about garag
e installation, but then my garages are not heated either, but one is in a  
basement which is not subject to the outside extremes.  If they insulate fo
r winter then they need an active cooling system.  
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So in summary you don't understand the UK electricity industry at all yet y
ou want to tell us what to do. Again.


NT

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:29:11 +0000, Martin Brown

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Perhaps hot water?  Electric heat in homes and businesses ramping up
from their nightly setback?

Re: Tesla Batteries
On 11/01/2019 03:51, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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Is electricity widely used in the USA for heating? UK most space heating  
is mains gas or oil fired where mains gas is not available. Both are  
considerably cheaper than using electricity for space or water heating.

Apart from demand led flash electric showers I can't see that there  
should be a big hot water hit. Most hot water tanks are well insulated.

--  
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 7:05:56 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
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 then.
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Gas is not widely used in homes since it is not universally available.  Whe
re it is available it is cheaper than electricity... everything pretty much
 is.  Heat pumps are used to good advantage in much of the country.  They a
re not so practical in areas with temperatures much below freezing where ba
ckup heat must be used.  Most of the US has few days or nights so cold.  Th
e most common substitute is fuel oil for heat. Hot water is pretty much alw
ays electric unless gas is available.  

  Rick C.

  ++- Get 6 months of free supercharging
  ++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 12:05:39 +0000, Martin Brown

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In the Southern US, yes, heat pumps are a primary heat method.  That's
what I have (two units).  My brother's house, as far North as Philly
also had heat pumps.  Some in NY and even Vermont have resistive heat
(boggle).  

"Cheaper" depends on a lot of things.  You're clueless, as usual.
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But the shower nozzles aren't (sheesh!).  When you take ten or twenty
gallons out of the tank the unit will come on until it's back to
temperature.  Multiply that times the number of households and you
have some real power.  It doesn't matter a damn how well insulated the
tanks are.  Think man!


Re: Tesla Batteries
On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 12:05:39 +0000, Martin Brown

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I've lived in Louisiana and California and always used natural gas for
heat and hot water and cooking.  

There is a trend (back to) tankless gas water heaters, but I looked
into that and it didn't look appealing.

Lots of new houses around here have "radient heat", which is heating
grids in the floors, hot water fed by a small gas heater. It's quiet.




--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: Tesla Batteries

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A then.
  
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heated floors are great for comfort and it is also a good fit for the low
  
output temperature of heat pumps




Re: Tesla Batteries

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Heat pumps are worthless. I bought a million-dollar house in Cupertino,  
California that uised heat pumps. They failed as soon as it got cold.

My main focus now is heat exchangers. They give ventilation for sealed  
houses but conserve the interior heat while bringing in fresh air. The  
concept is very simple. Here is an example for a 1 bedroom appartment:

The heat exhanger can be a set of parallel plates separated by perhaps  
0,080 inches, the diameter of 12 ga aluminum wire. The plates can be 5 mil  
aluminum available on Amazon. You can easily stretch the aluminum wire to  
make it straight. Cut the sheets to 12 inch squares separated by 5 runs of  
12 ga wire. Alernate squares are separated by 90 degrees. PL Premium can be  
used to glue the wires and plates together.

You can make the box out of standard 1/4" plywood. There are 4 chambers.  
One for cold inlet air from the outside which feeds fresh inlet air to the  
room.

The next chamber is stale room air crossing over to exit to the outside.

The stale room air will heat the fresh incoming air so you don't lose the  
heat. The stale exhaust air will give up its heat to the fresh incoming air  
so your retain the warmth. The recovery efficiency can be around 70% to  
85%, which is a worthwhile savings.

The heat exchangers work the same way in the summer. The hot outside air  
gives up its heat to the cold interior air exiting the heat exchanger. That  
way you conserve the air conditioned ar you have paid for, but still get  
fresh air to replace the stale air from your environment.

More advanced methods can recover the humidity from the air. See google for  
maore details.

The blowers can be outside flush mounted blowers that use centrifugal  
blowers to deliver air flow against the back pressure caused by the heat  
exchanger. The whole unit can be mounted in a 20 inch square assembly that  
can be mounted in a conventional window without requiring any holes or  
other modifications that might upset a landlord.

Some of the urls are:

  Dayton Model 1TDP7 Blower 146 CFM 3100 RPM 115V 60/50hz
  $66.49
  Free shipping
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Dayton-Model-1TDP7-Blower-146-CFM-3100-RPM-115V-
60-50hz/130023243?sourceid=csebr03210914501e6d40509bade638d557b086
&wmlspartner=bizratecom&affcmpid37%58489645&tmode00%00
&veh=cse&szredirectid15%469498433217831117210070302008005

  St Louis  Crafts  Aluminum  Metal Foil Sheet Roll -  36  Gauge  - 12
  inches x 50 feet
  CDN$ 64.48

https://www.amazon.ca/Louis-Crafts-Aluminum-Metal-
Sheet/dp/B0042SR2CK/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid15%46409768&sr=8-4
&keywords=aluminum+roll St Louis Crafts Aluminum Metal Foil Sheet Roll - 36  
Gauge - 12 inches x 50 feet: Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

  Pandahall 164 Feet Silver Aluminum Craft Wire 12 Gauge Flexible Metal  
  by PH PandaHall
  Price:     CDN$ 26.99
  Color Name: Silver
  Size : 12 Gauge(2mm)

  https://www.amazon.ca/Pandahall-Silver-Aluminum-Flexible-
Jewelry/dp/B07JK953BW/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid15%46438425&sr=8-18
&keywords=aluminum+wire+14+gauge

See google for more information.

Re: Tesla Batteries

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ow  
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depends on how cold it is and still better than just electricity, here many
 go for a ground source heatpump but it cost a bit more to establish


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isn't that pretty much a standard add on to any ventilation system?


Re: Tesla Batteries
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 7:36:46 PM UTC-5, Lasse Langwadt Christens
en wrote:

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 low  
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ny go for a ground source heatpump but it cost a bit more to establish

Of course.  Steve said they failed, not that they didn't work in the cold.  
 Heat pumps are typically rated to work down to about freezing (not sure if
 that's freezing in Celsius or Fahrenheit ;).  Below that they still work f
ine in my experience until you reach the point that the heat output is not  
enough to keep the house warm.  So instead of automatically turning on the  
backup heat (often straight electric) the backup should be turned on when t
he set temperature isn't maintained.  Straight electric is much more expens
ive to run, even at temperatures below freezing around here where normal ni
ghts may reach the 20's F, but seldom in the teens.  


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I don't know why he is going on about heat exchangers.  They are for provid
ing fresh air efficiently and have little to do with heating or cooling.  T
o the best of my knowledge ventilation is not required in residential syste
ms, but are in commercial spaces.  

  Rick C.

  ---+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  ---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries

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No. A ground source heat pump is very expensive. You are left with air  
transfer. It doesn't help if your outdoor air temperature is close to  
freezing temperature. You cannot transfer heat from that to room  
temperature. It doesn't work.
  
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Not yet. The costs for commercially available heat recovery systems are  
exorbitant. Most of them require plumbing to existing hot air distribution  
installations by external contractors. This is extranordinarily expensive.

You can do much better by yourself as I have shown.


Re: Tesla Batteries
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 9:11:35 PM UTC-5, Steve Wilson wrote:
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e
,
h  
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You are speaking from a complete lack of knowledge.  Perhaps you could stud
y a bit of thermodynamics.  The first thing you need to understand is that  
the relevant temperatures need to be referenced to absolute zero, so use Ke

t really so big a stretch.  

Then I will happily explain how the heat pump on my old house had an adjust

worked just fine saving lots of money compared to resistive heating.  I wis

F and I can see in the power history that the meter starts spinning at a mu
ch higher rate.  There have been nights where the usage was above 10 kW for
 hours while the usage above that temperature is only 2 or 3 kW.  It's not  
a gentle curve, the change is abrupt.  


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n  
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.

Heat exchangers have no real need to tie into the heating system.  They can
 be installed in a wall directly without connection to the heating system.  
 Of course it is better to tie them to the ventilation system, but that is  
an easy task, typically done on the cold air return since it often has less
 complexity than the hot ducts, best if done with the original installation
.  The real cost is the unit itself.  

  Rick C.

  --++ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  --++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries

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In Finland, the cost of a ground sourced heat pump for a single family

and installation, but not covering the heat distribution system.

I doubt it would cost much more in California, so the extra cost for a
million dollar house should not be excessive.


Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 06:57:49 +0200, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wrote:

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How big?

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Size matters.  My 4T air-source heat pump will cost somewhere between
$6500 and $12000 to replace (in the next week).  A ground-source heat
pump would be a complete waste of money here.  Other than noise
reduction, I don't think there is any advantage to the units at the
more expensive end of the range, above, either.  


Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 10:02:43 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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:
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the
no,
.
e
ish  
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ump

Where is here?  I'm sure there are many places where ground sourced heat pu
mps would be very cost effective.  I would need to see numbers associated w
ith any given installation, but I didn't choose a different system because  
of the cost.  I didn't buy the ground-sourced system because they wouldn't  
quote me a number.  They expected me to sign a contract to do the work rega
rdless of what the cost turned out to be.  Looking back, I should have gott
en them to bid the contract in two portions, the fixed price, well defined  
work part and the variable cost, don't know how much work it will be part.
  

I was so taken aback by the apparent ease of him asking me to sign an open  
contract that I didn't think to discuss it further and asked him to leave.
  


  Rick C.

  +++ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  +++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 19:15:09 -0800 (PST),
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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Southern US.  Atlanta, to be more specific.

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I don't think there is anywhere they're cost-effective if you include
all costs, including the cost of money.

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yeah, right?  We had an HVAC contractor give us a quote then say that
he couldn't do the work and that a friend would but he used a
different manufacturer and that quote wasn't binding.  Yeah, that was
going to happen.
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Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 10:37:57 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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:
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son:
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or the
rtino,
old.
here
ablish  
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y
t pump
a


F enough that it would make straight electric backup heat unrealistic.  Lot
s of people do that here too, VA/MD, but I think it's on the cusp.  By the  
time you get to NY you need to have some other backup heat to make it affor
dable and then you need to consider the system cost.  My heatpump/oil burne
r cost $7,000 while a heatpump/electric backup was $5,000.  Here you'd be l
ucky to get your money out of the oil burner.  In NY it's a slam dunk.  It  
also seems to produce better heat... actually warm.  


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 very cost effective.  I would need to see numbers associated with any give
n installation, but I didn't choose a different system because of the cost.
  I didn't buy the ground-sourced system because they wouldn't quote me a n
umber.  They expected me to sign a contract to do the work regardless of wh
at the cost turned out to be.  Looking back, I should have gotten them to b
id the contract in two portions, the fixed price, well defined work part an
d the variable cost, don't know how much work it will be part.  
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Cost of money is pretty low these days.  I don't know how much fuel cost a  
ground-system can save you, but it will be more than just not using expensi
ve backup heat.  They are cheaper to run all year long.  


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en contract that I didn't think to discuss it further and asked him to leav
e.  
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The quote is always non-binding... it's just a quote.  It's the contract th
at is binding.  


  Rick C.

  ---- Get 6 months of free supercharging
  ---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 20:16:51 -0800 (PST),
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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We get about a week below that each year but most of the Winter has
daytime lows around freezing with daytime highs in the 40s and 50s.
Gas, where available, is certainly preferable to a heat pump but it's
typically only available in the cities (I live about 40mi from midtown
and more or less in the sticks). Some use gas as auxiliary heat for
heat pumps, as well.  Electric rates are pretty low (electric heating
rates are $.07/kWh).

I called the heat in my previous house (also a heat pump) "forced cold
air".
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It's a *lot* of money and a *long* payback, if ever.

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It is a good faith estimate.  Knowing that you can't do the work is
not "good faith".

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 10:28:05 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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:
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ote:
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:
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Wilson:
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t for the
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upertino,
t cold.
y, here
establish  
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mily
heat pump
or a
en
at
?F enough that it would make straight electric backup heat unrealistic.  
Lots of people do that here too, VA/MD, but I think it's on the cusp.  By t
he time you get to NY you need to have some other backup heat to make it af
fordable and then you need to consider the system cost.  My heatpump/oil bu
rner cost $7,000 while a heatpump/electric backup was $5,000.  Here you'd b
e lucky to get your money out of the oil burner.  In NY it's a slam dunk.  
It also seems to produce better heat... actually warm.  
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Gas is available where someone paid to run the pipes.  There are plenty of  
homes in the city where there is no gas and a friend has gas 20 miles from  
any city in rural Tennessee.  

$0.07 is cheap for electricity.  Does that include all the per kWh charges,
 generation, transmission and distribution?  My local utility recently chan
ged their rates to double the fixed price to $20 a month and also raised th
e distribution charges a bit.  They said our bills won't change much becaus
e the cost of generation is dropping!  lol  


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Early heat pumps were anemic things that didn't warm the air up much above  
room temp.  Blow it around a little and it feels cold.  My latest heat pump
 feels warm coming out of the ducts.  


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 be very cost effective.  I would need to see numbers associated with any g
iven installation, but I didn't choose a different system because of the co
st.  I didn't buy the ground-sourced system because they wouldn't quote me  
a number.  They expected me to sign a contract to do the work regardless of
 what the cost turned out to be.  Looking back, I should have gotten them t
o bid the contract in two portions, the fixed price, well defined work part
 and the variable cost, don't know how much work it will be part.  
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 a ground-system can save you, but it will be more than just not using expe
nsive backup heat.  They are cheaper to run all year long.  
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Still waiting to hear from our resident solar owner....  Facts rather than  
everyone's estimates.  


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 open contract that I didn't think to discuss it further and asked him to l
eave.  
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 that is binding.  
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I don't know anyone "knew" they couldn't do the work.  The point is you can
't even begin to expect to hold anyone to an estimate.  That's why they cal
l it an "estimate".  Read the contract or don't, but that's what's binding.
  

  Rick C.

  -++- Get 6 months of free supercharging
  -++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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