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Re: Tesla Batteries
On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 08:50:22 +0000, Martin Brown

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<http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx
Note that solar and wind system, as well as off-grid systems, that
provide their own power, don't appear on the graph.  Only those system
that draw power from the grid appear.  As such, we have peaks at about
7 AM and 5:30 PM.  The trough at noon is when solar power is at
maximum, which reduces the maximum demand.

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That's exactly what it's for.  You charge up your PowerWall late at
night, when electricity is cheap, and discharge it during the early
morning and evening, when electricity is more expensive.  No solar
involved as everything is powered by the grid.

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That's a different animal.  That's using solar or wind power to
generate electricity, which is then sent to the grid for "storage" or
to be consumed by someone else.  In theory, you're saving the local
utility the cost of gas and oil needed to generate that electricity.
Of course that assumes that there's someone available to consume the
electricity you generate, or that the utility or grid have a way of
storing it.  It's conceivable that on a really sunny day, residential
solar power could generate more power than users could consume.

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That's the industrial Tesla PowerPack.  They come in different shapes
and sizes:
<https://www.tesla.com/powerpack
<https://electrek.co/2018/07/16/tesla-powerwalls-new-virtual-power-plant-australia/

Locally, Tesla and PG&E are working at installing a PowerPack at the
Moss Landing power plant:
<https://electrek.co/2018/06/29/tesla-pge-giant-1-gwh-powerpack-battery-system/
The justification is that it is cheaper to install these giant battery
packs to deal with the demand peaks, than it is to increase generation
capacity to handle the demand peaks.

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Which one?  The home PowerWall or the utility PowerPack system?  I
once found and posted in this group the web site that monitors the
PowerPack, which provided numbers for what was going in and out.
However, I can't find it again.  I'll try again tomorrow or day after.

No time tonite to comment on the rest....yawn.

--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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Re: Tesla Batteries
On 09/01/2019 07:45, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
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Interesting quite how different UK and USA demand profiles are at this  
time of year. UK comes up to a level plateau at 0800 until 1600 for the  
working day and then peaks in the early evening around 1800 as people  
return home to start cooking and using heating and lighting.

https://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

It is actually very mild for winter at the moment around 8-10C so that  
there is comparatively little heating demand. It spikes more when there  
is a cold snap to -10C (possibly by enough to bring the grid down).  
Successive governments have prevaricated for so long over new build  
nuclear that things are very borderline now for peak load vs capacity.  
They had to pay some heavy industrial users to drop off grid last winter  
(people like the electrolytic metals refiners - ultimate sink load).

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In the UK such battery packs are being sold in combination with solar  
arrays. Although we do have some cheap overnight electricity tariffs  
they have largely fallen out of favour - daytime is a rip-off. They are  
mostly a hangover of the "nuclear electricity to cheap to meter" era.

Government is presently rolling out dumb-as-hell cryptographically  
insecure "smart" meters to aid roll out of dynamic pricing. Snag is they  
don't work at all where I live - no mobile coverage inside the house. We  
can expect interesting times ahead when hackers try to damage UK power  
network infrastructure by switching domestic loads on and off the net in  
large chunks. My meter is prehistoric with counter rotating dials  
numbered 0-9 it confuses the hell out of younger meter readers.

There are second generation meters now but they continue to install the  
dud ones because they have them and also have a crazy deadline to miss.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2018/11/smart-meters-tech-problem-delay/

You couldn't make it up!

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But if you are not at home during the day to use it then storing it in a  
battery means you get paid for (not) "delivering it to the grid" and  
then get to use it later when you come home. This is part of the reason  
why solar hot water is a non-starter in the UK. The feed in tariff makes  
it more cost effective to generate PV electricity and dump it into your  
hot water tank immersion heater since you get paid to do that!

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We have a lot of gas turbine systems (and pumped storage) for demand  
peaks. It is a problem that most generation occurs in the north whereas  
the bulk of the consumption is in the south around London and SE.
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It was the 12kW (or above) system that I was interested in. That would  
provide enough capacity to buffer a respectable amount of energy. I am  
thinking here of solar 4kW array with battery storage for my home.

My question pretty much amounts to can it support a 3kW discharge rate  
or would I always have to take some electricity for peak loads even if  
the battery was fully charged.

--  
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 09:07:56 +0000, Martin Brown

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(Quick posting and I'm gone.  Back tomorrow, I hope.)

Various US electrical power monitoring pool reporting sites.  Note
that these are NOT designed for public disclosure or to show usage
patterns.  Rather, they are for the convenience of electric power
brokers and speculators.

Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.  See "Electric Power Markets".
https://www.ferc.gov/market-oversight/mkt-electric/overview.asp

California Independent Service Operators:
http://www.caiso.com
http://www.caiso.com/Pages/TodaysOutlook.aspx
There's quite a bit on the CAISO site, but much of it is buried under
a terminally disorganized web pile and various security obstructions.
In the past, there was considerably more information available to the
public.  However every time there's a security incident, the available
information is reduced.

Independent Service Operators of New England:
https://www.iso-ne.com
https://www.iso-ne.com/isoexpress/

Midcontinent Independent System Operators
https://www.misoenergy.org

New York ISO
http://www.nyiso.com/public/index.jsp
http://www.nyiso.com/public/markets_operations/market_data/maps/index.jsp?loadDA%M

Electric Reliability Council of Texas
http://www.ercot.com

New Brunswick Power System Operator
https://tso.nbpower.com/Public/en/op/

Independent Electricity System Operator (Ontario Canada)
http://www.ieso.ca
http://www.ieso.ca/power-data

Southwest Power Pool
https://www.spp.org
http://pricecontourmap.spp.org/pricecontourmap/


--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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Re: Tesla Batteries
wrote:
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The European version:
ENTSO-E  
<https://www.entsoe.eu/data/map/
<https://www.entsoe.eu/data/power-stats/

--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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Re: Tesla Batteries
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 4:08:09 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
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atteries for energy storage.
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In the US we have a morning peak and a late afternoon peak.  Both peaks are
 due to the overlap of business and residential usage.  In the summer month
s the morning peak becomes insignificant to the afternoon peak because of t
he AC.  Of course this varies somewhat with region.  It is a large and vari
ed country.  


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You mean during peak times, right?  It would make no sense to have them shu
t down.  Just let them work other than at peak.  Most factories like that w
ork multiple shifts anyway.  


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Not sure what that means.  What does nuclear have to do with peak rates?  


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That's what I had until recently when they installed a digital meter.  Oh w
ell.  


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delay/
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u
  
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I don't understand what you mean by "paid for not delivering it to the grid
"???  


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t-australia/>
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-system/>
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12 kW is four times my typical peak usage.  Much of the day when the heat o
r AC is not running my consumption is around 1 kW... peak.  


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I haven't looked up the spec, but it would be a pretty crappy battery if it
 couldn't deliver 3 kW.  That's about 30 amps at 120 VAC or 15 amps at 240  
VAC.  

  Rick C.

  -+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Wednesday, 9 January 2019 19:54:01 UTC, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:
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so you don't know how that setup works


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or that



rather unlikely


why?

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Peak consumption of 3kW is possible but most unusual in the developed world.


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No it isn't.


NT

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 3:41:27 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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You are an amazing conversationalist.  Your entire post said nothing at all of substance.  Glad you took the time to participate in the conversation... or not.  

  Rick C.

  ++ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On 09/01/2019 19:53, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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I take this to imply that cooked breakfasts are more common in the USA then.

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No I mean that last year they had to pay heavy industrial users to drop  
off the grid because gas availability and electricity generating  
capacity were maxed out during "the beast from the East" weather - an  
extended cold snap (which may happen again this year).

https://www.ft.com/content/30fa54b2-5e16-11e4-bc04-00144feabdc0

It has got worse since that 2014 article.

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Nuclear needs a higher base load. In the 1960's when nuclear was all the  
rage building the power plants it was said by the British government  
spokesman that we would have "electricity too cheap to meter".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_cheap_to_meter

(a phrase apparently coined by Lewis Strauss of USAEC)

Economy 7 was a tariff intended to encourage people to use electric  
storage heaters overnight on cheap electricity. They were utter crap.

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You get paid for exactly half of what your PV array produces  
*irrespective* of what you actually do with it. Most people turn it into  
copious hot water but if you are cunning you can store it in a battery  
and use it later in the evening. Hence battery with PV combo sales are  
more popular in the UK to avoid using grid electricity.

I think in the US they may well measure the amount of energy you deliver  
to the grid and "bank" it or something.

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I meant 12kWh battery capacity.

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Regular discharge at C/4 is quite stressful for a battery. 3kW is a  
typical peak load in the UK for kettles and electric fan heaters.

--  
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:29:23 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
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en.

Or maybe we take more baths/showers?  In any event, we use more power at ho
me in the morning which has overlap with business.  


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So winter time usage?  Still, wouldn't that peak at night?  Peak energy con
sumption is a time of day issue.  Or are you saying the problem was not the
 generating capacity, but that there was not enough fuel supply to keep the
 generators running????  

Perhaps you are not digging far enough into the issue to understand that th
e peak generation limitation generally only impacts certain times of the da
y.  Isn't that clear?  It would make no sense to ask heavy industry to shut
 down at other times.  


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I don't know what an electric storage heater is.  You mean they would make  
heat from electricity and store it in hot water or something similar?  We'v
e talked about that here and it takes a lot of water to store much heat.  P
hase change stores a lot more heat over a narrower temperature range.  

I guess the above is a British thing that never made it over hear.  I still
 don't get what any of this has to do with "daytime is a ripoff" or what yo
u are trying to say about it.  


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If by "bank" you mean getting paid, then yes.  Some states may limit your b
enefit to simply reducing your bill rather than getting cash, so that I sup
pose would be like "banking" it.  Many places let you get cash, but only fo
r the generation and transmission portion of the bill.  


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Not sure why you say that.  Tesla car batteries are regularly charged at a  
full C if not a bit higher.  They are tapered off to a lower rate over 50%  
charged.  The max discharge rate is over 400 kW from my 100 kWh battery.  S
omething like 515 HP, but of course that is sporadic, not remotely sustaine
d.  

I thought a standard outlet was 9 amps at 240 volts, that's more like a bit
 over 2 kW.  Is it more like 13 amps?  Here it is 1.44 kW, 12 amps at 120 v
olts (the current for continuous loads is derated to 80%).  


  Rick C.

  --+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On 11/01/2019 01:11, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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Evidently.


No look at the graphs. It peaks mid day.

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Some of each. They don't have any reserve capacity and fuel for the kit  
they have as supply of last resort was running low. In addition it was  
cold over most of Europe so they couldn't borrow power from neighbours  
using the interconnects to mainland Europe.

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The sort of industries they had to shut down run 24/7 and have to put  
into a safe dormant state. A few heavy industries can switch on or off  
at a moments notice and are used to balance the grid - salt electrolysis  
at Runcorn for example.

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Typically they were a bunch of firebricks with a resistive heating  
elements inside them. It worked OK in buildings that had been designed  
with electric storage heating from the outset. It was rubbish everywhere  
else - big ugly bulky metal boxes that got mad hot overnight and were  
stone cold by the time you really needed them in the early evening.
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To get the so called Economy 7 tariff cheaper at night you pay more for  
daytime usage.

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But do you get paid for the *energy* you actually export to the grid or  
a fraction of the energy that you generate (UK it is the latter).

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The question really is what is a sustainable discharge rate for one of  
these things that will not lead to long term damage.

Do the batteries not get rather warm at a >1C charge rate?

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UK domestic sockets are rated for 13A full 3kW load.

Modern recommendations are that portable loads should not exceed 2.4kW  
as plugs tend to get warm on 3kW and some nasty Chinese made extension  
blocks will melt if you try to draw that much from a single socket.

--  
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 5:17:46 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
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I don't see any time of day graphs, only an annual supply shortfall graph.
  

There is a paragraph saying, "One measure will see the National Grid give f
inancial incentives to energy intensive companies that agree to cut their e
lectricity use at peak times ? between 4pm and 8pm ? on win
ter workdays."

That's about the same as our summer peaks.  I guess it's summer all year ar
ound in Britain.  

So regarding the "heavy industrial users" being paid to drop off the grid,  
that would only be needed around the peak time, right?  No point in shuttin
g down 24 hours when only the peak needs to be mitigated.  


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I would be surprised if the weather varied much across Europe.  If they can
't get power from the neighbors because everyone is seeing the same sort of
 weather, what would be the purpose of the links?  


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"Moments notice"?  They don't really have to shut down 100%.  They just nee
d to scale back enough to mitigate the peak.  What sort of industries can't
 do that?  


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My house is on time of use billing, but the expensive time is peak which va
ries with season, not "day" vs. "night".  The off peak rate is about 1/2 (h
ard to say exactly because the rates are broken up and only generation is c
heaper) and on peak is five times more expensive.  So far I'm pretty sure i
t is paying for me.  It's not clear to me if this is better for the utility
 company.  


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That's very odd, but I guess it's their way of subsidizing solar.  Will the
 subsidy be permanent?  Here it is by law, but only for homes and limited i
n capacity and has to be renewed periodically.  


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I'm sure it is the same as the charge rate.  


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Yes, they produce heat and are adequately cooled.  Fortunately they can be  
warm so simple cooling is adequate.  They can't be too cold however and mus
t be heated in very low temps.  


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I wonder where I got the 9 amp thing.  2.4 kW is 10 amps, right?  If we had
 3 kW outlets I wouldn't need to put in an expensive wall connector for my  
Tesla.  

  Rick C.

  +-+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  +-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries

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Attention!  The following workers will not be paid from 4pm to 8pm today  
as we'll not be building cars on that line.

Building 6 workers will not be paid between 3 and 7 pm today as we won't
be needing engines during that time.

Just in time delivery portals will be shuttered between 2 and 10 pm
as we have no place to store the excess inventory. 16 new part time
workers will be hired to restock between 10pm and 2AM.

Paint dryers will be shut down between 4 and 8PM and will be ready
to accept new cars after the system reaches operating temperature
at 9PM.


I'm sure you can manage all that.  Apply there for a job.  You'll love it.





Re: Tesla Batteries
On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 5:51:17 PM UTC-5, Mike wrote:
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Do you really thing they expect companies to shut down on an hourly basis with no notice?  If they are writing contracts to pay companies for shutting down, I'm pretty sure they are planning more than a day ahead.  

Then on the other side, there are jobs where you are told on a day to day basis if you will be working or not.  No, it doesn't make for a lot of job satisfaction, but it happens.  

A friend had his work week cut to 32 hours for a good period.  I guess the alternative is looking for a new job.  When enough people do that he would get his 40 hours back I suppose.  It's all better than not working.  

So a factory that has to cut off the high power motors, heaters or electrolysis between 4 and 8 PM can still produce whatever they make the other 20 hours a day and the 4 hours shutdown of the high current stuff lets then do maintenance and such.  

Was this really something you can't see, or did you just feel you needed to make a joke?  

  Rick C.

  +++ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  +++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On 1/11/2019 7:50 PM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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I made no mention of not planning ahead.  What good does planning do when
the employees don't have options?
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You're oversimplifying a very complex interwoven society.
Who is gonna take your kids to school when your work  hours interfere?
What if you gotta be home at certain  hours so your wife can work?
You think the others on this long chain of consequences will be  
sympathetic?

YOU as an individual can make a choice whether  you take your bath at a time
when energy to heat the water is more available.  If YOU decided when I  
could take my bath, we'd have a discussion!

The world works on coordinated schedules.  Changing them is not at all  
simple.

My footprint on the planet is very small.  It's my choice.  I do what I can.
But I don't tell other people what to do and punish them if they don't.

Your choices are yours and made to optimize YOUR existence.
When you choose for me, you're gonna get push back.
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Re: Tesla Batteries
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simple. "

True, but they do it for daylight savings time which is one of the most stooopid things ever done by these hairless apes.  

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 07:09:20 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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Disagree.  I rather like DST.  In fact I wish they'd up in another
hour (year around).

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 6:03:56 AM UTC-5, Mike wrote:
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st need to scale back enough to mitigate the peak.  What sort of industries
 can't do that?
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ay
is with no notice?  If they are writing contracts to pay companies for shut
ting down, I'm pretty sure they are planning more than a day ahead.
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Your post is clearly emulating an announcement over a PA system telling peo
ple to go home at 4 o'clock rather than 8.  That is the definition of "no n
otice".  


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ay basis if you will be working or not.  No, it doesn't make for a lot of j
ob satisfaction, but it happens.
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the alternative is looking for a new job.  When enough people do that he wo
uld get his 40 hours back I suppose.  It's all better than not working.
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trolysis between 4 and 8 PM can still produce whatever they make the other  
20 hours a day and the 4 hours shutdown of the high current stuff lets then
 do maintenance and such.
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d to make a joke?
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Clearly you know little about shift work.  There are many jobs where you wo
rk the hours they provide or you don't work at all.  If this is scheduled e
nough ahead people make plans accordingly.  

Don't blame me for the problems it creates.  It's not my system.  I wouldn'
t tell factories when they can have power.  I would make sure they *have* p
ower.  


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ime
  
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Now I have no idea what you are talking about.  But I will say when I was a
 kid we had a separate meter on the hot water heater.  It shut off every da
y at peak time and we had a lower rate because of that.  For some reason th
e power company discontinued the program and the meter was taken out and th
e box sealed.  


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Tell that to the British.  I guess they know nothing about schedules.  


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an.

Lol!  You must be living like Ted Kaczynski.  


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Tell it to the judge!  

  Rick C.

  ---- Get 6 months of free supercharging
  ---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Re: Tesla Batteries
On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:50:13 -0800 (PST),
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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During the 2008/9 banking crisis, we had to take a 10% pay cut because
of cash flow problems.  Digikey, Avnet, and such, were shaved some too
but were willing to float the business for a while until things got
better.  The employees never recovered that 10% (for about a year,
IIRC).

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Option 'A', it appears.

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Friday, 11 January 2019 14:45:49 UTC, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:

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Please tell us you're kidding. I could use some Spanish weather right now.


NT

Re: Tesla Batteries
On 11/01/2019 14:45, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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It has got worse since that 2014 article. Not enough generating capacity  
and some of the aging kit is becoming prone to breakdown in winter.

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http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Left hand grey graphs are daily, weekly, monthly and yearly demand.
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It was *much* worse than that implies. They were literally paying some  
very big users to drop off entirely and stay off. The likes of smelting  
plants that have to be put into a safe lower power but still fairly hot  
state and cannot be switched on and off on a whim. They needed to keep  
the refineries running or there would have been other shortages as well!

Another complication was that it was found that some NHS hospital  
beancounters had very cleverly put their gas and electrical supplies on  
a cheaper interruptable tariff to save money (reasoning that supply  
shortage based interruptions would never happen).

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1597316/Hospital-gas-supply-could-be-cut.html
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They had to drop even more at peak times but they had to literally shut  
down entirely the biggest users and pay them to use as little as they  
possibly could consistent with not damaging their idle plant.

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The links work well most of the time and allow easier load balancing.

It can happen when there is a blocking high in mid winter that a large  
part of Europe gets similarly very cold weather at the same time. The  
clue is in the name "Winter". Siberian winds can reach the UK when this  
happens and we are *never* prepared when it does. Snag is that a nice  
calm blocking high can take down all the wind generation and cause very  
cold temperatures to develop with clear skies overnight.

The more southerly climates stay nice and warm in winter but large parts  
of highly populated northern regions end up in the icy grip of winter.  
The entire of the UK is latitude 50 or above. We have a maritime climate  
most of the time but if the wind is from the East we get very cold air  
from the cold continental landmass and snow.

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Smelters, metal refineries, glass making or any continuous process that  
is energy hungry and needs tightly controlled conditions. Certain loads  
are historically used for load balancing - mainly electrolysis which  
literally can be switched on and off at a moments notice (some require a  
certain holding current to make sure the electrolyte stays molten) but  
the brine ones are the ultimate load balancers and very tolerant.
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It may be. What is a typical US electricity cost per kWhr. It is about  
12-15p in the UK (10-12c) but with a daily 30p standing charge as well.
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It is for the people who have installed solar PV under that deal.

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That is interesting. So although the Tesla power wall says it can work  
installed outdoors at -10C it is doing that by consuming enough power to  
keep itself at some more battery friendly temperature. Makes sense since  
chemical reactions vary exponentially with ambient temperature and  
diffusion will be slower in the cold too.


--  
Regards,
Martin Brown

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