Spectrum analyzer recommendation

Dear Colleaques,

We have a number of HP89410A spectrum analyzers in our lab, which have been just great general-purpose workhorses over the years. But they are growing old, and Agilent no longer wants to repair them. I have been looking for a more modern replacement, but to my surprise I haven't found any other equally well performing one. I suppose there may be a workshop somewhere (preferably in Europe, if you happen to know one) which repairs obsolete instrument models, although I haven't searched for one yet.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear if SED'ers have in mind something to recommend.

I have been primarily using the 89410's for amplifier noise measurements - it is dc coupled and performs quite well down to sub-Hz frequencies while its top frequency is the rather sufficient 10 MHz. There are audio analyzers with decent low frequency performance (SRS and R&S among others), but their top frequency seems to extend only to

100 kHz or so. Actually we used such audio analyzers before getting our first HP89410A in 1994, but I'd prefer not to downgrade to those old days. In fact, I *could* use even slightly larger top frequency, like 20MHz or 50 MHz, if that's available. The true rf spectrum analyzers tend to have their frequency range starting from 3 Hz or so. I'd like it to extend below 0.1 Hz, preferably down to 0.01 Hz.

One nice feature of the 89410's is that they have a built-in source, with a pseudorandom noise option. It is very convenient to first measure the noise, then check the gain with a sinusoidal excitation (you can check the harmonic generation simultaneously) and finally the frequency response with pseudorandom noise. Our units are equipped with two input channels, which gives the capability to perform (i) the true amplitude-phase transfer function measurement and (ii) cross- correlation between the two channels - however these two-channel measurements are not used quite so often.

When both the source and the analyzer are combined the instrument does not take as much workbench space as two separate units would. The best thing about our 89410's is that they are reliable and easy to use. Just hoist the analyzer to your table, power it up, and you can pretty much rely on the nV/rtHz reading it gives, without having to do RBW calculations in ones head or any such a thing.

I have tried to get comfortable with using a Rigol DG5252 arb generator together with either Rohde&Schwarz spectrum analyzer or the Cleverscope CS328A. The combination just isn't convenient. You have two units on the table, plus a PC in case of the Cleverscope. The R&S menu logic comes from the rf world, even if it was ultimately possible to set it up for log-frequency plotting (so that you recognize the poles and zeros conveniently) and some other units than dBm - besides the R&S has 50ohm only inputs and its 20GHz top frequency is really an overkill in my appliction.

Nowadays I could roll my own instruments out of various commercially available modules, but the software with a decent user interface would take quite a lot of effort to develop. I'd prefer to avoid that, although it is an option if all else fails. I'm astonished if no-one really makes anything resembling the 89410 any more. Actually we have a VXI-based HP89640 which pretty much lies in the lab unused because it is so clumsy to move around and operate. I've been playing with the idea to equip it with a permanently attached tablet-like computer, but (i) that instrument, too, lacks the source, and (ii) in a quick test its low-frequency performance wasn't that wonderful although the inputs can be made dc coupled.

Have you guys encountered anything which would more-or-less fit the bill?

Regards, Mikko

Reply to
Mr Stonebeach
Loading thread data ...

Well, Google Ads immediately popped up with this gadget when I submitted the post:

formatting link

1 Hz low frequency limit is a bit high, and I'd need to pair it with an USB controlled source of some sort. It's obviously too much to hope that one could control both from the same control/analysis software. Even if the source and the analyzer are controlled from different application windows, I guess even it is not obvious that the two pieces of software could co-exist peacefully in the same computer. Also the highest input signal seems to be 200mV only - well, one can use separate attenuators when needed but they are clumsy and are extra trouble because one needs to rescale the plots in ones head.

Its rugged version

formatting link
looks quite street-credible...

Regards, Mikko

Reply to
Mr Stonebeach

What's wrong with getting a few more 89410As for parts mules? You can keep old equipment running a _looong_ time that way. The HP/Agilent Yahoo group is a good source of wisdom, e.g. if there are battery-backed SRAMs in there that you should stock up on before they go away.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

..

That is an idea. I didn't know about the Yahoo group, thanks for the hint.

I would prefer, however, to leave the study of the maintenance manual and reverse engineering those guts of the instrument not described in the manual to someone who is specializing on such a thing. My calendar is packed full already now.

I do agree BTW there's the by-product that one often learns a lot by studying well-made instruments; my colleaque just found this interesting site

formatting link
. His search was actually a follow-up to Joel Koltner's post in the thread tinyurl.com/

9nzjc2m , driven by our interest in lossy transmission lines. But oh boy, I now notice that John L. recommended the very same link in that thread already...

Regards, Mikko

Reply to
Mr Stonebeach

Well, they probably don't break very often, and you can probably get three used spares for the price of one new replacement.

I have a few of the Tek Concepts in hard copy. The sampling scope and vertical amp books are especially good. It's a pity that the sampler book doesn't go up to the 1180x series--that would be a really good read.

I'd love to learn how to make samplers and pulsers that good. Maybe when my ship comes in I'll spend a month reverse-engineering an SD-24. (I have a pile of them--they're addictive but not fattening.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Ah, I used to have a copy of Orwiler's Vertical Amplifier Circuits, until some indelicate visitor made off with it. Grrr.

Oh well, there's always the library.

Jeroen Belleman

Reply to
Jeroen Belleman

There are some Tek patents by Agoston Agoston. One is a very interesting SD-24-like TDR design, but it's not the hybrid of the actual SD-24. AA's design is a really cool diamond-shaped metal block with slotlines machined into the surface. I wonder why they didn't do it that way.

I really don't want to believe that slotlines actually work, especially when they are machined into an aluminum plate. On a PC board, they are bad enough.

AA recently asked me for info on my reverse convolution thing, so I sent him the code. He's still doing sampling stuff. He was involved in the PSPL/LeCroy shockline sampler, which I think is history now. He told me once that, when he left Tek, they had an agreement that he wouldn't build samplers past 20 GHz, but there must have been a time limit on that.

Somebody into oral histories should spend some time with AA, and the guys (Chen?) who did the fast stuff at HP.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com   

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

They show up on Advanced Book Exchange periodically. You can enter a saved search (which they call a 'want') and get an email when somebody lists one.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

oor-Analyzer-N...

I sometimes 'feel your need'. We've got an SRS770, but as you say max frequency is 100kHz. I wonder if anyone has tried the Rigol Spectrum analyzer? DSA815-TG. ~10kHz to 1GHz. It would be a nice add-on to the SRS. I just watched Dave Jones (eevblog) take one out of the box.. but no review yet.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

No replacement recommendations so far, it seems...

It's a great shame that the Cleverscope signal source is so handicapped; that instrument actually comes close as a reasonable HP89410 replacement in many jobs. The low frequency performance is not phenomenal, but it's dc-coupled, so that an extra LNA helps in cases where much dynamic range is not needed. At 100MSa/S and 14bits it gives a reasonable dynamic range elsewhere and its user interface is quite nice, including in the spectrum display mode. Couple of years ago it rose clearly above most other USB scopes in the market, but I suppose the gap has narrowed now (although I haven't recently checked what's available). But its integrated signal source stinks - only sine, triangle and squarewave up to 10MHz, without fast enough a sweep capability to construct a chirp. If it only had a decent ARB generator!

Maybe John's company could take some sort of a HP89410 successor into its portfolio...

Regards, Mikko

Reply to
Mr Stonebeach

version

formatting link

As Phil H pointed out, the phase noise performance of those is orders of magnitude worse than state-of-the-art (but similar to some later model Agilent SAs- probably for the obvious reason).

Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

version

formatting link

IIRC the Rigol spectrum analysers are worse than most older models from any brand which have a YIG oscillator. A plus for Rigol is that a spectrum analyser in general will probably become much more affordable than they used to be. A few months ago I could get a good deal (way cheaper than Ebay and 90 days waranty!) on an Advantest R3131 from a test equipment dealer and I went for it :-)

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to
Nico Coesel

In case it interests somebody, here is the spectrum a Cleverscope displays when its input is coupled to a 50ohm terminator, the acquisition time is 2 seconds, and the input sensitivity is at its highest +/-20mV fullscale. Roughly 700nV/rtHz noise floor, with the 1/ f knee somewhere near 100Hz. The low frequency part indeed looks like

1/f, i.e. 10dB/decade. Nothing to write home about, but one can always equip it with an LNA, if dynamic range allows.

formatting link

Below is the spectrum when the input is excited (from its built-in signal generator, through an attenuator) with 1kHz sine at almost full- scale amplitude. Slightly higher than 80dB dynamic range to the noise floor, ~60dB to the 3rd harmonic.

formatting link

No match to the HP89410, its noise floor was spec'd better than

-100dB of full scale per Hz (-118dBfs/Hz typical above 40kHz), 3rd harmonic -85dBc typical. Actually, I'm starting to wonder how did they achieve such great performance? With the ADC's available in 1992? I know they used proprietary custom ADCs (there was an article about the

89410 in the HP Journal describing its inner life), but still...

My Cleverscope unit is an ethernet version. Maybe I'll power it from a battery, the galvanic isolation would be great in avoiding ground loops.

Regards, Mikko

Reply to
Mr Stonebeach

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.