Re: What will happen if a terrorist puts a current on the "ground" wire ?

Fuckhead. Just go hunt up a tin foil hat on ebay or google.

You useless lying bastard.

--

*plonk*

Do not reply to this generic message, it was automatically generated; you have been kill-filed, either for being boringly stupid, repetitive, unfunny, ineducable, repeatedly posting politics, religion or off-topic subjects to a sci. newsgroup, attempting cheapskate free advertising for profit, because you are a troll, because you responded to George Hammond the complete fruit cake, simply insane or any combination or permutation of the aforementioned reasons; any reply will go unread.

Boringly stupid is the most common cause of kill-filing, but because this message is generic the other reasons have been included. You are left to decide which is most applicable to you.

There is no appeal, I have despotic power over whom I will electronically admit into my home and you do not qualify as a reasonable person I would wish to converse with or even poke fun at. Some weirdoes are not kill- filed, they amuse me and I retain them for their entertainment value as I would any chicken with two heads, either one of which enables the dumb bird to scratch dirt, step back, look down, step forward to the same spot and repeat the process eternally.

This should not trouble you, many of those plonked find it a blessing that they are not required to think and can persist in their bigotry or crackpot theories without challenge.

You have the right to free speech, I have the right not to listen. The kill-file will be cleared annually with spring cleaning or whenever I purchase a new computer or hard drive. Update: the last clearance was 19/08/10. Some individuals have been restored to the list.

I'm fully aware that you may be so stupid as to reply, but the purpose of this message is to encourage others to kill-file fuckwits like you.

I hope you find this explanation is satisfactory but even if you don't, damnly my frank, I don't give a dear. Have a nice day and f*ck off.

| > Usually there are two wires a plus (+) and a minus (-). | | | In the U.S., one swings between + and - (the "hot" wire), | and the other sits at zero voltage (the "common" wire). That is | because residential two-phase wiring here is AC, and therefore | there is no positive wire nor negative wire. I expect that the | same holds in the Netherlands.

Nope. Europe uses 415V 3-phase and neutral 50 Hz. Domestic is single phase and neutral, 230V. There is no 110V 60 Hz here.

HERE WE GO AGAIN.....

IT IS SIMPLE TO ENERGIZE THER GROUND ON AN AC SYSYEM. AT ONE POINT OR ANOTHER THEY ARE CONNECTED TO A CURRENT. DIRECTTLY AT THE SERVICE ENTRANCE OR THE METER PANEL.. IT JUST NOT CONNECTED DIRECTLY TO THE HOT SIDE....DUMMY. YOU CAN ENERGIZE THE GROUND BY CONNECTING A DROP LIGHT OR A DEVICE FROM HOT TO GROUND AT THE BUILDINGS UTILITY SIDE.......STILL THE CURRENT WOULD TAKE THE SHORTEST PATH TO EARTH...AND NOT UPSTREAM INTO THE APARTMENTS YOU FOOL..STOP PLAYING WITH ELECTRICITY.

IF I CATCH YOU FOOLING AROUND WITH YOUR PC AND THE BUILDINGS ELECTRICAL/GROUND SYSTEM I AM GOING TO SLIME YOU WITH ECTOPLASM.

TGITM

"Androcles" added:

And residential outlets here (for small devices) provide what's called "single phase" - just as in Europe - not 2-phase as I wrote.

*TimDaniels*

| > "Timothy Daniels" wrote: | > | "Skybuck Flying" asked: | > | >I have a few more questions about the power outlet in general: | > | >

| > | > Usually there are two wires a plus (+) and a minus (-). | > | | > | | > | In the U.S., one swings between + and - (the "hot" wire), | > | and the other sits at zero voltage (the "common" wire). That is | > | because residential two-phase wiring here is AC, and therefore | > | there is no positive wire nor negative wire. I expect that the | > | same holds in the Netherlands. | >

| > Nope. | > Europe uses 415V 3-phase and neutral 50 Hz. Domestic is | > single phase and neutral, 230V. There is no 110V 60 Hz here. | | And residential outlets here (for small devices) provide what's | called "single phase" - just as in Europe - not 2-phase as I wrote. | Another major difference is the US has far more smaller transformers on poles than Europe where the supply is predominantly underground, a result of population density distribution. There are strict building codes (regulations) that require all metal water and gas pipes to be electrically grounded on both sides of the pond.

the connection between ground and neutral isn't alwaysthe same.A single phase device will operate on two of the three phases ifit has the correct voltage, so for example a water heater or ovenfrom the USA which operates on two hot wires and no coldthere will operate on a single hot (live) wire and neutral here.The terminology also differs, live = hot, neutral = cold, earth = ground.

Persisting to fiddle around with the insides of your PCs while knowing so little about electricity, it's no wonder you keep getting into trouble.

First, don't you even think of modifying existing outlets. You'd likely get yourself killed.

Then, your PC and all the gadgets connected to it should be connected to a grounded outlet. It says so in the manual. If you don't, the line filter will cause your PC cabinet to float somewhere halfway between line and neutral. This is why some may claim that it's at 120V (in Europe). This isn't really dangerous to humans --the source impedance is pretty high--, but it will almost certainly lead to damage if you poke around inside your PC while it's plugged in, even if switched off. Also, connecting devices to the PC's ports under these circumstances is risky: Parallel and serial ports are particularly fragile, ethernet ports are more robust.

Finally, even if the PC *is* connected to a grounded outlet, or if it's not connected to anything at all, you may still cause damage through static electricity.

Jeroen Belleman

Touching PC is one thing...

But what if I touch PC AND something that is grounded ?!?

Is there still danger ?!

Heart problems can occur at just 50 mA to 200 mA ?!

Here you seem to contradict yourself somewhat.

Why would a PC get damaged but not a human being ?! ;)

Both seem quite fragile ! ;) Yet I have not died yet ! ;) =D Lucky maybe ?! ;) =D

Bye, Skybuck.

It is as I said: Not really dangerous to humans. We're talking hundreds of microamperes here. You may be able to feel it under some circumstances, but it would mostly go unnoticed.

Not at all. Some electronics can be damaged by zaps you would never even notice. It doesn't take much to punch through the few tens of nanometers of gate oxide of a FET.

Jeroen Belleman

the connection between ground and neutral isn't always the same.A single phase device will operate on two of the three phases ifit has the correct voltage, so for example a water heater or ovenfrom the USA which operates on two hot wires and no coldthere will operate on a single hot (live) wire and neutral here.The terminology also differs, live = hot, neutral = cold, earth = ground.

Gas lines are required to be plastic, with a wire to use a tracer to locate it's position in the US. Water lines are not allowed to be used as grounds, due to electrolysis in the US.

The term is 'Line', not 'live', except to Mr. Fix-it types.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid? on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

I take it that you live in a backward area that doesn't give a shit about safety.

The last new gas service I installed was 25 years ago. I had to use the orange plastic gas line from the street cutoff to the gas meter. The original install had the meter in the basement, right next to the fusebox. That violated several regulations so I had to move it outside and replace all the piping. That meant the plastic pipe and a Robroy mount to connect the plastic to the meter. Then I ran a 21 foot piece of black iron from the meter to the furnace drop, per code at that time. Then a gas company employee ran a leak test run after the physical inspection. He had bragged that no homeowner had ever passed that test in less than three tries, and most contractors failed the first test. he was very pissed that I passed the first test.

"Black pipe' is rated for gas service. Galvanized isn't. If you don't like it, take it up with your insurance company.

Doesn't surprise me. Rather that get an outdate law removed, the lazy drones will sign off on anything. My original water line was so thin that it snapped when I was digging it up to replace it. It was the original ground for the electrical system, per the code when it was installed. Electrolysis had ate away most of it. It was replaced with 'K' copper between the street cutoff and the new water meter. It was run inside 2" PVC pipe from the cutoff to the inside basement wall. That took special permission from the city engineer, but made it possible to replace by just digging up the cutoff box. He was amazed that no one had ever thought of the method and stated, "Everyone should do it that way!"

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid? on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

On Fri, 13 May 2011 03:40:20 +0100, Androcles rearranged some electrons to say:

Which is the same as US residential distribution, except for the voltage and frequency.

| > | > Usually there are two wires a plus (+) and a minus (-). | | > | | > | In the U.S., one swings between + and - (the "hot" wire), | and the | > other sits at zero voltage (the "common" wire). That is | because | > residential two-phase wiring here is AC, and therefore | there is no | > positive wire nor negative wire. I expect that the | same holds in the | > Netherlands. | >

| > Nope. | > Europe uses 415V 3-phase and neutral 50 Hz. Domestic is single phase and | > neutral, 230V. There is no 110V 60 Hz here. | | Which is the same as US residential distribution, except for the voltage | and frequency. | Not quite. In Europe each home gets one phase and grounded neutral from a large communal transformer, but in the US each home gets two phases and neutral from a smaller individual transformer and the two phases are not clearly identified by a colour code as they are in Europe.

The US uses many small transformers on poles which can throw the load out of balance between phases, causing more neutral current. One cannot ground the star point of the secondary winding of a three phase transformer if it doesn't exist.

Keep in mind that Sanny soft tanks was asking about grounding and in the US the cold wire may not always be at ground potential.

Those may be pre-unification figures. The EU standard is now 230/400 V (wye/delta) at 50 Hz. For small appliances, 230 V are taken between one phase and neutral.

This may vary somewhat from country to county in Europe, but is quite common to have a 3 phase (TN-C) distribution to each detached house. Within the house, any small load is wired in the main distribution panel between live and neutral. Care is needed to share equally the single phase loads between phases. Summer cottages and each apartment in an apartment building may have only a single phase feed.

In the TN-C, TN-S and TN-C-S wiring systems

the star point is available at the distribution transformer.

The only exception that i can think of was Norway, with 220 V delta (220 V loads between two phases), I am not sure, if they are using it somewhere anymore.

I have also heard of rumors that 220 V delta has been used in former Soviet Union.

In the 220 V (IT wired) service, a leaning against a _single_ phase conductor does not disrupt the service, even if the voltage from other phases to ground will increase. When an other tree falls on an other phase, the service i disrupted.

| >| > | > Usually there are two wires a plus (+) and a minus (-). | | >| > | | >| > | In the U.S., one swings between + and - (the "hot" wire), | and the | >| > other sits at zero voltage (the "common" wire). That is | because | >| > residential two-phase wiring here is AC, and therefore | there is no | >| > positive wire nor negative wire. I expect that the | same holds in the | >| > Netherlands. | >| >

| >| > Nope. | >| > Europe uses 415V 3-phase and neutral 50 Hz. Domestic is single phase and | >| > neutral, 230V. There is no 110V 60 Hz here. | | Those may be pre-unification figures. The EU standard is now 230/400 V | (wye/delta) at 50 Hz. For small appliances, 230 V are taken between | one phase and neutral. | | >| | >| Which is the same as US residential distribution, except for the voltage | >| and frequency. | >| | >Not quite. | >In Europe each home gets one phase and grounded neutral from a large | >communal transformer, but in the US each home gets two phases and | >neutral from a smaller individual transformer and the two phases are not | >clearly identified by a colour code as they are in Europe. | | This may vary somewhat from country to county in Europe, but is quite | common to have a 3 phase (TN-C) distribution to each detached house.

I haven't inspected every supply in Europe, but certainly in Britain three phase is for industrial applications only. Unless one is running a large sawmill in the garage there simply isn't the need for three phase in domestic applications so the service line isn't run to them. It is relatively cheap to run overhead wire from a pole in the US, But Britain is more densely populated and the services are run underground; the transformers are large and at ground level, usually tucked away out of sight behind fences and bushes, with one transformer supplying the whole street.

| Within the house, any small load is wired in the main distribution | panel between live and neutral. Care is needed to share equally the | single phase loads between phases. Summer cottages and each apartment | in an apartment building may have only a single phase feed. | | >The US uses many small transformers on poles which can throw | >the load out of balance between phases, causing more neutral | >current. One cannot ground the star point of the secondary winding | >of a three phase transformer if it doesn't exist. | | In the TN-C, TN-S and TN-C-S wiring systems |

the star point is | available at the distribution transformer. | | The only exception that i can think of was Norway, with 220 V delta | (220 V loads between two phases), I am not sure, if they are using it | somewhere anymore. | | I have also heard of rumors that 220 V delta has been used in former | Soviet Union. | | In the 220 V (IT wired) service, a leaning against a _single_ phase | conductor does not disrupt the service, even if the voltage from other | phases to ground will increase. When an other tree falls on an other | phase, the service i disrupted. |

Look, "Asshole Mouthing"... it is like this.

If you have other than ZERO VOLT potentials that can appear on your grounded chassis, and in your nation's electrical power wiring scheme, then YOU, of all people should be even MORE keenly aware that an open case means you do NOT touch circuit card elements.

I can guarantee you that your lack of knowledge and understanding of what ESD is, much less how ESD events damage circuitry, even if it is not immediately catastrophic, is what has killed every circuit card you ever laid hands on.

YOU, of all people should be getting an education is ESD susceptibilities and YOU of all people should have an ESD safe workstation set up for whenever you are going to "work" on an electronic device.

Every post you have made over the years, indicates with absolute certainty, that YOU do not know the first thing about ESD, and therefore you also have a near zero grasp of electronics itself, and that makes no 'country of origin' distinction. You, with your inane, and largely lay person aptitude level curiosity, is what has you thinking that you know what is going on when you do not, and is most assuredly why you damage so many of the things you buy.

That stats on others that use the same products are a pure indicator that YOU are the problem with your gear.

The standard is the IEC standard. Note how all PCs, and most consumer A/V products... pretty much anything you can pick up and walk with (not a refrigerator), will have a removable power cord.

Most switchers these days are "auto-switchers" and do not require a physical switch to be thrown to change the input voltage.

Most can handle between 90 VAC and 365 VAC (or DC, in fact) and will operate in any theater. It is, of course, a single phase feed with live, neutral, and ground (Hot, Cold, and Earth). Where ground or 'Earth' is the chassis common and fault return. So your home has to have some similar internal residential formatting.

The wires are easy too. Brown is a "hotter" color than blue is. I shouldn't have to explain further for the other two.

On Sun, 15 May 2011 14:03:58 +0100, Androcles rearranged some electrons to say:

You are incorrect. US residential single-phase distribution is split phase. The HV overhead is carried as 3-phase delta which has no neutral. A single-phase secondary (i.e. residential) is carried as split phase, with the center point as the neutral. It is not correct to refer to this as "two phases" as it is derived from a single phase of the primary. Since both conductors of a split phase system are actually the same phase, it is not necessary to identify them separately.

Every service entrance at a home is required to carry a bonding jumper and a ground system, where the neutral must be bonded to ground. Therefore the neutral conductor within the home is connnected to ground at one point- the service entrance. It is an unsafe practice and a violation of the law to connect the neutral to ground at more than one place within the home. The grounding conductor is there only to carry fault current in the event of the metal chassis of a piece of equipment contacts the hot lead. An appliance without a metal chassis that is exposed to a user (a lamp, for example) may not require a 3-wire plug.

There are older homes that do not have grounded electrical outlets, but any home built in the last 50 years or so are required to have grounded outlets.

A 3-phase secondary is (in general) 3-phase wye, again with the neutral bonded to ground. Large industrial facilities are likley to have 3-phase delta service, with their own internal distribution networks.

It is also incorrect that every home has an individual transformer. In most dense residential areas, the secondary wiring is shared amoung several homes (the "commnual" transformer you refer to). Only in less densly populated areas would a home have its own transformer.

In USA, homes generally get one phase of the 3 phases, not two.

Two 120V legs 180 degrees out of phase with each other comprise one phase, not two. Two phases out of 3 are 120 degrees apart, not 180.

Just for giggles, there is such a thing (not common) as "2-phase". The two phases there are 90 degrees apart. 2-phase and 3-phase can be converted back and forth between each other with transformer arrangements.

--
 - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)