Re: Some new idea on energy project as a hobby

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Reply to
Richard
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On Oct 11, 9:15=A0am, "Richard" wrote: [... electolysis ...]

t >isn't free. =A0You really believe your battery has endless power by itse= lf? >=A0Why don't you prove this to yourself >>> unhook the Field line of y= our >alternator(1 wire), and =A0your car will stop running in 15 minutes or= it will >be so sluggish. =A0That proves electricity power from your altern= ator comes >from your Gasoline, you pay for it, so you pay to electrolyze y= our dirty >water. =A0Quit believing in Free power, there isn't one.

Cars don't become sluggish as the battery dies. They start to stumble and misfire and die over quite a short period of time after the battery drops below about 10V.

If you add salt to water, the electrolysis releases chlorine gas. This isn't such a great idea. It is a poison and rots lots of plastics. Adding NaOH is a better idea. You will get way more gas out for less power in. The gas production and then burning the gas will then only lose about 50% of the energy in a well tuned engine.

Feeding a mixture of H2 O2 and water vapor into a badly inefficient engine, can gain you enough of an efficiency improvement to make it pay off. The reasons have to do with the chemistry of the combustion. You won't gain anything like what you could gain by improving the engine, however.

Reply to
MooseFET

In my first post, i already said that ?use wind turbine to generate electricity and than use the electricity to electrolysis water to get hydrogen and than pump/compress the hydrogen into the gas tank.? That is how you can blend hydrogen with CNG to run our car. You want to distort my original idea, i can't do anything.

There is a project by Idaho National Laboratory under U.S Department of Energy that do experiment of running vehicle with ?Hydrogen+Natural gas mixture?

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Reply to
New_idea

There is a project by Idaho National Laboratory under U.S Department of Energy that do experiment of running vehicle with "Hydrogen+Natural gas mixture" or even 100% hydrogen.

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It is a good idea if we can use hydrogen to run our (internal combusion) car by just a few thousand dollars modification on our car. The question is where to you get hydrogen gas? One way is to use electricity to electrolisis water, and the electricity can come from renewable source (wind,solar,hydro power plants)

If the electrolisis process i mention in my earlier posting is no good. we can find a better way to electrolisis the water and find ways to improve it eficiency, example this website talk about adding a small amout of asid sulfuric to the water to increase the efficiency

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Reply to
New_idea

There is a project by Idaho National Laboratory under U.S Department of Energy that do experiment of running vehicle with ?Hydrogen+Natural gas mixture? or even 100% hydrogen.

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It is a good idea if we can use hydrogen to run our (internal combustion) car by just a few thousand dollars modification on our car. The question is where to you get hydrogen gas?

One way is to use electricity to electrolysis water, and the electricity can come from renewable source (wind,solar,hydro power plants) Some people might said "oh it is a lot cheaper to produce hydrogen from fossil fuel" but than you if you do that you still depend on fossil fuel to power you vehicle! My point is: stop using fossil fuel to power our vehicle. If the hydrogen produced by electrolysis process is very expensive, we can find ways to reduce the cost.

If the electrolysis process I mention in my earlier posting is no good. If there are other negative effect from this electrolysis process we can find a better way to electrolysis the water and find ways to improve it efficiency and find a better ways to do electrolysis so that it will not produce negative effect ,

example this website talk about adding a small amount of said sulfuric to the water to increase the efficiency

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That is why the scientist needs to do research and development.

Reply to
New_idea

"New_idea" wrote in news:hau3cg$vfv$ snipped-for-privacy@adenine.netfront.net:

conversion losses kill your idea.you lose a lot in the electrolysis,and even more in the compression of H2.

and wind power runs irregularly,not dependable.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
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Reply to
Jim Yanik

Or we could use the wind-generated electricity to charge the batteries of a hybrid and avoid the homebrew chemical engineering, insurance and waste disposal issues, the ones that bog down small-scale use of many good ideas.

Just for fun, shop around for stainless steel tanks and plumbing. All I can find is scrap pipe and sheet metal that I can weld into tubes and rectangular box shapes, but not pressure vessels even to hold water-mains pressure. If you DO find a used industrial pressure vessel, how do you decontaminate it?

jsw

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

self?

your

it

r

ur

car

You have jumped over a bunch of logic that says "It may be a very bad idea to use hydrogen in an engine". If you have a nearly free source of hydrogen perhaps but if not, a fuel cell may be a much better way to use hydrogen.

The problem is that when you burn hydrogen you get water. If you cool that back down to the starting temperature, it is smaller than the H2 and O2 you started with. This costs you in engine efficiency.

can

ve

There is a limit on the amount of improvement you can get. The breaking apart of the water takes a certain amount of energy. Getting the energy to that point int eh process can be improved. Once you get down to the water, the energy needed is an unchangeable number.

the

trolise.htm

That makes it easier to get the energy to the water. Even once you have done that, the efficiency still will be well under 100%.

Reply to
MooseFET

Don't store hydrogen in steel. Unless you get the right kind, the steel gets brittle.

Reply to
MooseFET

Newby, Sorry, but you have an 'idea' but you don't have a good idea. Do the numbers. If you can't do the numbers, go over to sci.energy.hydrogen where you can find the numbers. The facts of life are that, simply, you will be spending dollars to get pennies of gain. Your equipment costs alone will dwarf any possible gains you get from this sort of setup. If is one of those "Looks good to the masses" types of ideas that confuses people so.

TANSTAFFL!!!

Charlie

Reply to
Charlie E.

Ok, lets take a look at this.

First, you have a $10K wind turbine generating electricity. (That means, a really SMALL one! A house requires more like a $40K turbine...) Now, you take that perfectly good electricity, waste 30% of it, and generate hydrogen. You pump and compress it (taking up another 10-20% of energy) and put it in an internal combustion engine designed for natural gas. You use it to displace, asy 20% of the natural gas used by this engine.

So, lets simply compare the costs of the hydrogen vs. the cost of the natural gas it is replacing. The natural gas probably costs less than $50 per fill up. Your wind system with the turbine, electrolyzer (by the way, have you priced these?) pumps, compressors and other equipment actually cost around $15K, so just the interest on these is $600 a year. Assuming a 10 year life (if you are lucky!) then the cost per year is $2100. Yes, I am being very, very optimistic on these prices. Reality is probably 2-10 times worse! so, if you normally fill up weekly, you get:

Pure natural gas $50 per fill up

52 fill ups $2600 a year

Now, you hydrogen system is to defer 20% of this, so your system is

natural gas $40 per fill up

52 fill ups $2000 per year $2100 per year for hydrogen $4100 per year for your hydrogen scheme.

I, personnally, don't have an extra $1500 a year to play with hydrogen. Do you?

You are better off using the wind system to charge batteries, and buy an electric vehicle by an order of magnitude!

Charlie

Reply to
Charlie E.

Newby, You are confusing politically motivated research grants and reality. INL was able to get someone to give them money to waste on this project, and delude folks like you. Doesn't mean it is a good idea.

Charlie

Reply to
Charlie E.

:

and just using pressure to store hydrogen is not very usefull for a car.

I think 90 liters of hydrogen at 150 bar, is about the same amount of energy as 8 liters of gasoline ......

-Lasse

Reply to
langwadt

ine.netfront.net:

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as

if the power is "free" losses isn't such a big issue, so if you can either make H2 or stop the windmill because you don't need the power right now, it is really free.

for something like H2 production or battery charging it could work because it just what windpower is missing, a buffer that can even out the irregular, but I'm sure quite predictable production capacity

-Lasse

Reply to
langwadt

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It's hard to identify junkyard scrap stainless steel unless the fabricator left the markings on it. And you don't want to buy it new for a cost-saving hobby project!

jsw

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

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Reply to
Richard

Sounds like another version of the glogal petroleum company conspiracy brought back from the 50's again.

1 gallon [U.S.] of automotive gasoline = 36.6 kilowatt hour. So you're telling me you can move a 4000 car 75 miles on 36.6 kWh ? I don't believe it. I get 50+ with a Prius but you need to pay attention to when to accelerate and how much.

Reply to
Josepi

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