pointers to transistor (semiconductor) curve tracer circuits/projects

I find myself in a situation where I am repairing some high end audio amps and cassette decks that have house numbered semiconductors, mainly transist ors as well as JDEC p/n that are NLA.

I have found a few transistors that are dead and need to be replaced. Fort unately, they are in parts of the amp where the other channel has an identi cal transistor. Having one transistor as a base will allow me to match something close to t he original.

I have made (in the past) the typical transistor curve tracer that shows t he curves on a scope - cute but not precise enough for my intentions. I am more interested in a lab type instrument.

Basically what I am looking for is a curve tracer that has a micro attached to it that have some A/D's on them that can record the data of interest (e .g. Ib (vb), Vce, etc. I've considered an arduino based approach but they have the limitations of 5V max on the input for the A/Ds and don't want to scale it. I've looked for old Heathkit and Tek curve tracers that I could augment wit h a micro but they seem to be very scarce, in addition to having transistor s in them that are NLA. I could design one myself but in all honesty, I'd prefer to find something where someone has 'plowed the ground' and at the very most, I'd have to aug ment it with a micro. Yea, I am a bit lazy - the intent was to fix the amp , not develop a curve tracer.... Thanks in advance J

Reply to
jjhudak4
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Do you generally have schematics? That should be enough to pick a replacement part.

A curve tracer tells you nothing about thermal properties, namely power handling capacity.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

for "high end" audio amps and cassette decks the parameters you'd also want to know the noise specifications a curve tracer won't tell you that either.

But outside of critical sections like phono preamps that were designed for very low noise the exact specifications of small signal transistors in TO-92 package in audio equipment is kinda noncritical, the jellybean transistor they went with in a particular design is often whatever what was on sale at the time.

I like the BC550C/BC560C as generic audio small signal transistor replacements

Reply to
bitrex

I got a transistor spec book here that goes so old the first number in it i s 2A. It doesn't give curves but really, do you need that ? Why would hfe i n the linear range be that critical that you can't do it with a decent gene rator n shit ? Technically you could do it without a scope, and accurately.

I mean, this "intent to fix the amp", what kind of amp ? An instrumentation amp with about 500VA output designed for varied, nonlinear and and highly reactive loads ?

The only transistors that are critical like that are those used in a curren t sharing scheme, especially if they didn't want alot of Re on them.

If it is analog current sharing then you really just need to match them at somewhere near their maximum current like 70%, that'll make them share when it counts. Who cares when it is operating at 5% output ? I think you are o verthinking this, if I am wrong say so, and of course do tell why...

Incidentally, they obviously discontinued that 2A. I don't know how we'll g et by. Fifty volts ! 120mW, 8mA !, Icbo 2mA, hfe 3. that means that the Vce o might be as high as hfe times Icbo, 2 X 3. So the operating range could b e from 6 - 8 mA collector current...

Hell, 2mA @ 40V ? Umm, 20K ohms ? I mean not really but it seems your sourc e resistance better be lower than that, at least to DC. A transformer ! Now where's that Triad-Utrad book at ? All these damn tubes around. Now look ! The other day I couldn't find an ion trap to save my life. Then kids bette r keep off my grass or I'll give them an (_|_)full of rock salt outta old b etsy here. Shoots just as straight as she did in the war between the states she does.

Reply to
jurb6006

My possibly-biased-by-youth opinion is that the transistor curve tracer is a mostly obsolete instrument from a time when transistors were expensive and manufacturing tolerances sucked balls and duff/under-performing parts were commonplace, that's not year of our Lord 2018, discrete transistors are cheap and quality is excellent.

Like maybe if you needed to well-characterize RF or microwave amp transistors to get all the relevant information about their parameters that they often don't include on datasheets, for large-scale manufacture, maybe useful, an arduion/AVR based design will probably not be able to do that however.

But just for audio circuits like why do this, the schematics/service manuals for just about everything ever sold are available online and I can't recall ever not being able to find an appropriate substitution cross-reference with a bit of searching

Reply to
bitrex

"youth", in quotes I'm just shy of 40

Reply to
bitrex

Wow, that explains why you're not conservative. You will be in about ten years, and don't worry, it doesn't hurt.

Reply to
jurb6006

** It's " JEDEC " = Joint Electron Device Engineering Council.

The full specs for JEDEC semis are always published and Google can search that for you. Also this page has a few more clues.

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** You are wasting your time, that is no way to even get close.

I have a LOT of experience with substituting transistors found in all brands of hi-fi and pro audio electronics. There are plenty of clues to be found & used in choosing suitable replacements for obsolete and code numbered parts.

Sometimes devices need to be Vbe and/or Hfe matched - circuit topology is the big clue there.

Hint: watch out for TO3 devices that seem like ordinary power transistors but are in fact Darlingtons.

..... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Nope. Not smart enough to learn.

Reply to
krw

I'm probably too long-time New Englander for that I'm afraid, why in the world would I join a party so beloved by these whackjob "Real America" holy-roller evangelicals? scumbag scam-artists the lot of 'em and anyone who panders to them

Reply to
bitrex

Would 10v work for you? Note the +/-15VDC power supplies.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

As the saying goes...

If you're not a socialist when you're young, you have no heart; If you're not a capitalist when you're old, you have no brain.

:)

Reply to
Clifford Heath

"We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children, because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the Earth."

The "beauty of the White Aryan woman" could stand to lose about 35 pounds on average in this country, it's way more likely to perish from heart disease than Mexicans

Reply to
bitrex

Curves aren't going to tell you much. There isn't much variation between induvidual transistors, in the parameters that matter.

Well, hopefully in circuits that are made insensitive to those parameters.

Well, "high end audio", who knows. You'll have to find (or trace) the schematic and analyze it for stability and such.

The headline parameters are the more important ones. Vceo (actually Vces under current, Vceo is a minimax parameter) is measured like a zener. Ic(max) is more or less where hFE falls over. hFE and Vce(sat) are measured at typical conditions (not at the same time, mind: hFE drops sharply at low Vce, for obvious reasons!). Those will more or less fix the size of the junction: hFE falls over at high current density, and junction thickness (not necessarily die thickness) sets Vceo.

Junction size and thickness also set capacitance, more or less. (I don't think anyone is using super fancy doping profiles in amplifier transistors, and switchmode transistors have shit SOA so hopefully wouldn't be found here.)

That leaves the biggest degree of freedom: fT or t_r and such. A ring base connection, like the ancient mesa 2N3055, has shit all fT and Vce(sat), due to large Rbb'. Modern (80s+) epitaxial are planar, made with interdigitated emitter and base, much faster. A lot of power supplies, amplifiers and such fell victim to that, where they sang like a bird after repair...

To test that, set up an amplifier and measure the current gain as a function of frequency. It'd be probably a resistor from func gen to base, and collector load of a cascode (with a known faster, equally ampy) transistor. Or just a low resistance (noninductive) so Miller effect is still negligible.

Switching behavior isn't quite the same because of the highly nonlinear conditions, but that's easy to test, too, just set up the right turn-on and turn-off base currents. The sharpness of turn-on/off is distinctive of different types.

Also noise, but power transistors probably don't need to worry about that. If you're replacing input transistors, you may need to consider it. Testing noise figure is kind of a pain, you'll want to look up some references.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC 
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design 
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/ 

 wrote in message  
news:7fe0e947-7965-45ff-bb2b-49172f9de534@googlegroups.com... 
I find myself in a situation where I am repairing some high end audio amps  
and cassette decks that have house numbered semiconductors, mainly  
transistors as well as JDEC p/n that are NLA. 

I have found a few transistors that are dead and need to be replaced.  
Fortunately, they are in parts of the amp where the other channel has an  
identical transistor. 
Having one transistor as a base will allow me to match something close to  
the original. 

I have made (in the past)  the typical transistor curve tracer that shows  
the curves on a scope - cute but not precise enough for my intentions. I am  
more interested in a lab type instrument. 

Basically what I am looking for is a curve tracer that has a micro attached  
to it that have some A/D's on them that can record the data of interest  
(e.g. Ib (vb), Vce, etc. 
I've considered an arduino based approach but they have the limitations of  
5V max on the input for the A/Ds and don't want to scale it. 
I've looked for old Heathkit and Tek curve tracers that I could augment with  
a micro but they seem to be very scarce, in addition to having transistors  
in them that are NLA. 
I could design one myself but in all honesty, I'd prefer to find something  
where someone has 'plowed the ground' and at the very most, I'd have to  
augment it with a micro.  Yea, I am a bit lazy - the intent was to fix the  
amp, not develop a curve tracer.... 
Thanks in advance 
J
Reply to
Tim Williams

Y're right. I'm just short of 71. I started out as a radical leftist, commie pinko, anti-everything, chronically protesting, hippie freak: Fast forward about 40 years, and today I'm an arch conservative, somewhat reactionary, right leaning, registered Republican, member of the establishment: It can and probably will happen to you. Resistance is futile.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 19:27:50 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: (...)

"Simple V-I curve tracer using an oscilloscope and function generator" (5:24)

I recently had to match four 2N3771 power transistors in an Astron VS-35m linear power supply repair so that each transistor would overheat equally and so that the output current meter would produce sane numbers.

I don't own a curve tracer, so I threw together something similar to the above video, except that the ramp (function) generator provided the current to the base, scope vertical across a small value emitter resistor, and scope horizontal to the ramp generator output. Not the best, but good enough for a quick fix. Sorry, no photos.

"More Circuit Fun: Simple transistor curve tracer using Stairstep generator circuit" (11:13)

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Woah, how unusual.

You don't have to explain to us that the "baby boomer" generation were sellouts with no real values who'd gladly hawk their souls for ten bucks. We know, already ;-)

Reply to
bitrex

"Get us the funny man with the monkey! that's who we want for prez. The funny man with the monkey!!"

Reply to
bitrex

you'll learn

Reply to
tabbypurr

Not really. Many of my friends followed approximately the same path. Some saw the problems with the idealism of the 1960's and switched early, while others got the clue after they accumulated some responsibilities. I know a few that still look like they're protesting something, but vote and put their money on conservative candidates and policies. My transformation was rather unusual:

Patience. Your turn will come. Best you prepare yourself for the inevitable metamorphosis.

Ok, I won't explain. You already have all the answers. I'll give you credit for recognizing that us baby boomers had "real values" to sell, while your generation seems to lack any values worth selling.

11PM and I forgot to eat dinner. Argh.
--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

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