patent infringment?

I have a device that, by itself, does not infringe a patent, but does when the user uses it, it is still patent infringement?

That is, by itself, it doesn't violate all the claims when made and in fact doesn't even have to be like the device in the patent, but can be(and is intended) to be used like the device in the patent.

Here is very simple example

Patent Claims

  1. A device that is square
  2. Said device in claim 1 has a round dot on it.

My device is square but no round dot on it. I intend the user to put the round dot on it for similar reasons in the patent so the device will be used the right way but they don't have to and it will still function. My device is not exactly like the patent device but very close.

The problem is, that the patented device uses some very general language and some things that are simply almost necessary. For example. Claim: The square is made out of wood. Well, there really is no other option. It can't be made out of metal, moth balls, cotton candy, etc... There are only 2 things that it can be made out of that will at all make it useful and the patent gets them both. It would be possible to make it out of the other things to get around the patent but then the device wouldn't be useful. Just take my word on it.

Another example is claim 2. It is necessary for the dot because without the dot the device can't function in any useful way. (just take it for granted... this is just a silly example)

It would be like patenting a bolt and the dots being analogous to the threads.. although at least that has a bit more alternatives. In my case there is no other way since either you put the dot on and the device works or you don't and it doesn't.

I know the example is silly but if it take it only in the context I've given and don't try to add anything extra and think about the logic itself it shouldn't be too hard to answer.

My guess is if I created my device and sold it I would get sued either way(since my device is better). Even though I created my device without any knowledge of the other and, while it is different it is also similar(but similar because there are very few ways to do it in the first place... and any engineer given the criteria would come up with a similar device). My device is better as it provides more utility but, again, had to follow certain fundamental engineering properties because it is the nature of the problem.

In the patent one of the claims is the thickness of the square and they say "Approximately 0.0001 in to 1.5 in" but if the device was even anywhere greater than 0.2 in it would be useless(too thick for the user).

The patent branches out a bit and covers many different variations of the device. It basically prevents any variations. Of course they did this to prevent competition. Unfortunately I've created a device, already have it done, that improves on the concept(again though, I didn't steal the idea because I didn't know about it until I started research the patents). Seems like my device may never see the light of day though. My only thought is that I could sale the device without the dot and let the user add the dot to it... even if that was possible it wouldn't be very viable as it is a bit difficult to add the dot(the average user would have to take it to a tech).

In the original patent they talk about assemblies an patent all the parts of the assembly(although each part except what I have come up with is has been around for centuries). They created their device, to be built as one while I created mine to be easily inserted into the already existing assemblies. Mine was about economy while theirs is not.

What gets me is that just about any engineer could come up with basically the same things if given just a few requirements and goals. The patent though prevents all these ideas by basically patenting how the device is to be used in another device(that isn't patented but is required to make the new device useful).

Another simple silly analogy is patenting a battery by patenting the devices that will use it and using general enough language to get all the devices that will use it. If you could do that you could prevent any other similar batteries, from being used. In my case the main device(the thing actually created) consists of just a simple circuit board with a few common ic's with very basic function(like just simple sensors and a ic to read them).

Reply to
Jeffery Tomas
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Huh?

Violating any claim is enough to infringe.

If you have a distinctly novel method or means for achieving a similar result, which does not depend on or incorporate the patented material, you're golden.

If your device is square, it infringes claim 1.

Not exactly square? You just said that it was.

I'd suggest "Patent It Yourself," Nolo Press, or consulting a patent atty. Ideally, read up on the basic principles, then talk to the lawyer. That'll clear up the confusion.

--
Cheers,
James Arthur
Reply to
dagmargoodboat

Standard patent crap (as currently practiced). It all comes down to how deep are your pockets .vs. how deep are theirs - ie, you can take it to court and get the bogus claims invalidated, and see if there really is a patentable concept left at the end - but it will cost you, and generally the deeper pockets win. I, for one, am deeply disappointed with the state of the patent system in the US at this point in time. As far as i can tell, right now the best thing you can do with a patentable idea is to publish it as soon as possible to prevent it being (validly) patented by anyone else, unless you have a few million $ you want to fund a set of patent lawyers with.

Unless, of course, it's suitable for being treated as a proprietary secret, and staying that way when someone else can buy your device and try to reverse engineer it. Not the case here from what you've said.

Or, just have a Chinese factory pump out a few million of the things. They don't seem to be affected by the concept of intellectual property - of course, that applies to yours as well as theirs.

--
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Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.
Reply to
Ecnerwal

There's a lot of murky thinking and urban legend about patents. It does all make sense, it's just a different, more critical, more educated way of thinking about inventions and what distinguishes them.

Publishing your idea to prevent patenting has been just about the worst strategy--that lets established factories you couldn't possibly compete with have your idea for free.

I'm not sure if that's still true under first-to-file...that changes things.

--
Cheers,
James Arthur
Reply to
dagmargoodboat

Google for "induced infringement". Also, a device with the same utility isn't necessarily an infringing device--to infringe, it has to meet all the limitations of at least one claim.

I'm not a lawyer, and I have a limited amount of experience in this, having been an expert witness on five cases so far. (Two have settled, one is stuck waiting for claim construction, and two are in progress.)

The three basic ways I've seen people defend against an infringement suit are: (a) Show that the device doesn't infringe; (b) Show that the patent, or at least all asserted claims, are invalid; (c) Countersue for infringing _their_patents and settle, one way or another--usually by cross-licensing, I think.

There's a strong presumption in law that an issued patent is valid, so (a) and (c) are usually much easier than (b), unless of course the accused device obviously infringes.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

I'm not sure this really slows down good-sized companies seeking patents, though -- it's very easy to find plenty of patents where there's plenty of prior art, but the patent is granted anyway, so if you come out with a competing product you're still going to be forced to spend a lot of money in court demonstrating that prior art so as to get their patent invalidated.

I say "Flash of Genius" last week, which is about Robert Kearns taking on Ford to force them to recognize his patents on the delayed windshield wiper. The case was quite clear-cut and he did prevail (and received judgements for millions of dollars), but it still took him nearly two decades and largely destroyed his family in the process. Very much a Pyrrhic victory...

---Joel

Reply to
Joel Koltner

I'm sorry but that proves you don't know how a patent works.

Reply to
Jeffery Tomas

Of all claims!!! It only takes one claim not to hold to not infringe.

My main issues have to do with the language. It is very general in some cases and very specific in others. My device, depending on how you define things, can clearly be made to not have some claims met... and hence should be patentable.

For example, at least from my limited and very recent knowledge on patents,

suppose a device has a claim "Is made out of wood" and no other claims pertaining to the composition(Such as metal, plastic, etc....) and you make your device out of metal... then your device is different and does not infringe.

This is why the patents tend to make many claims like "Is made out of X" where we have a claim for each material it can be made out of. This way, it prevents anyone from using possible materials to get around the patent.

But in some claims they use dimensions "Thickness is approximately between X and Y". It would seem to me that if your device is outside this then you do not meet the claim and hence are not infringing... except it uses the term approximately... which leaves it open and hence they could easily sue you and probably win if that is the only difference.

All I know is my idea provably better simply because it has more things than the other device... but otherwise is very similar simply because of the constraints put on such devices. My device, at least how I did it, is different in some regards and I need to find out if those differences are enough or not. The biggest problem is that the patent under discussion includes the "assembly" and many of the claims are about the assembly... even though the assembly by itself has existed for centuries. All it takes is a minor modification of the assembly to use the device... but the claims in the patent are almost exclusively about the assembly.

For example. The assembly is made out of wood.. One of there claims is "The assembly is made out of wood or plastic". Another claim is "The assemble will have holes in it". This may or may not be true of the common assembly but you have to add holes to it if you want to use the device(mounting holes or whatever).

There is only 2 claims out of about 50 that have anything to do with the actual device I created and which is rather unique. All the others describe how the pre-existing assembly is and/or interfaces with the device... but only 2 or 3 of these actually have anything specific with the device.

It seems as if they basically patented the assembly instead of the device which then prevents any such device from being used since it has to use the assembly... but they did it in a very subtle way since the assembly cannot be patented.

Reply to
Jeffery Tomas

Nope. As long as a device meets all limitations recited in any one claim, it infringes. You have to avoid all of them in detail--that's why people write so many.

There's another possibility that you may not be aware of: continuations. If you have a patent or patent application, you can file a continuation, i.e. the same specification with a new set of claims. The upside is that you keep the original filing date, so that you can target all subsequent products, but the downside is that the term of the continuation patent is limited to 20 years from the filing date of the original case. The key point is that in deciding whether to grant the continuation patent, *only prior art from before the original filing date is considered.*

In other words, if your original specification was the first place the invention was described, you can still patent it even if somebody else subsequently developed and sold it. That isn't widely understood, I don't think.

That's commonly used to target competitors who you think may be using your invention but somehow avoid the claims in the original patent. (I'm currently working with the defense on a case where that may have been done.)

It isn't that simple, actually. There's something called the 'doctrine of equivalents' that you have to worry about. Baseball bats are made of white ash wood, but if you used a South American tree with similar properties, so that you just replaced one known element with another known element with no unexpected utility, it might be found to be equivalent.

You don't seem to be very clear on all this. I'd get some professional advice if I were you, either a lawyer or a patent agent.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Again asking questions you already know the answer for?

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
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Reply to
Nico Coesel

But all claims are dependant on the previous claim, right ??

i.e. If your new product does not match claim #1, then you are OK from there on, right ??

I hadn't heard of the 'doctrine of equivalents' before but it makes sense.

Either way, I believe that the US patent system is broken. I see patents all the time that appear totally obvious and have prior art.

I've even convinced one particular company of that about 10 years ago them prior art from about 15 years earlier than their file date. and their lawyer stopped bugging us.

I believe that the USPTO just wants to make lots of money and since they are excempt from any and all future litigation, they have absolutely nothing to lose.

boB

Reply to
boB

No. They're independent unless specifically stated otherwise. With

18 patents I've learned from my attorneys to not be too specific with your claims... be general and sweeping... claim the whole world and then see what the examiner disallows ;-) [snip] ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

I'm sorry, but you guys that think you only have to infringe upon a single claim in multi-claim patent are simply wrong....

formatting link

"Only if a product has all these elements does it infringe the patent. The validity of a patent is judged by comparing the claims against the prior art."

"To infringe, each and every element of a claim must be present in the infringing product. If even a single element is missing, the product does not infringe. It doesn't matter if the patent document says that that single element is optional: if it's in the claim, it is required."

Notice the terms "each and every" and "all"...

Also, if you actually spent the time to think about it, it would be absurd to have patents you were correct...

Reply to
Jeffery Tomas

Sounds like you are getting confused... I didn't ask what a patent was or how it worked but about specific details. Essentially how far reaching a claim.

Anyways, I can see you not interested in logic nor facts...

Reply to
Jeffery Tomas

I'm sorry Phil but you don't seem to know much about patents either. Just about every resource I have read has mentioned that you have to infringe on ALL the claims. See my other post for single reference. THINK ABOUT IT!!! If you were right then a single patent could cover everything. The claims are all logically AND'ed together to form the complete patent.

Else I could add a single claim to some valid set of claims "... the device exists" and by your logic it would then patent all devices that exist... whether or not they actually infringed on the other claims or not.

Have you even read any patent claims before? If you were right then you would see just how absurd it would be. "Claim X: The device is made of wood". By your logic all devices then made out of wood, regardless of what they are would infringe on such a patent.

Reply to
Jeffery Tomas

It is my understanding that the patent system is not about proving patents. They simply create a "legal" date of an invention that can be used to "prove" when it was invented.

The people reading and granting patents don't know everything and most don't know much except patent law. So how are they suppose to know that some gizmo isn't a complete piece of junk or completely obvious?

They simply make sure the patent can be used legally. Then, if someone wants to challenge the patent in a court of law later on, they can... unfortunately like everything else lawyers get there hands on, it costs a lot of money. I've read it costs around 500k and up to challenge a patent.

One way is to do away with such a system... Let competition determine who is the best. Unfortunately this favors big business. Another way would be to do a better job at defining the patent specification... from what little research I've done it seems as long as you write something up in a certain formal way you will get your patent. It doesn't matter if the language is somewhat vague or it's claims are complete lunacy... as long as they follow a certain patent logic the it will pass.

Reply to
Jeffery Tomas

Nope. Hint: quaternions

Pay for a patent lawyer and hope you didn't waste your money.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to
Nico Coesel

First of all, DEPENDANT claims can largely be ignored. They exist mainly as a stopgap in case some element of the INDEPENDANT claim ON WHICH THEY DEPEND is later ruled invalid/prior art/etc.

When trying to avoid infringement, you focus on the *independant* claims.

The key words here are "of a claim". A patent can make MANY claims of which *many* will be dependant (i.e., ignored for this discussion).

Yes. The role of the patent examiner is to get the applicant to refine his claims as tightly as possible. The role of your patent lawyer is to get those claims to be as GENERAL as possible!

The examiner wants to add lots of qualifications to your claims. The attorney wants to *eliminate* them.

E.g., "A shovel is a device for removing dirt" is how the examiner would like to see it worded.

"A shovel is a device for moving material" is how your attorney wants it worded!

The examiner's wording would allow someone else to patent a "snow shovel" without infringing.

The attorney's wording would consider a *bulldozer* to be an infringement!

In general, patents only make sense if you have the pockets to defend them. I believe the terms are way too lengthy. Nowadays, patents should fade away much quicker as all they do is present hurdles that you *will* find a way around (perhaps that's fostering the goal of innovation?) Patents are a throwback to a day when people based their *careers* on single ideas AND where it was easier to deal with infringement.

Imagine if someone could turn out 1,000,000 cotton gins from their "garage" and distribute them, overnight; accept payment almost anonymously and "disappear" into the countryside before the authorities could mount their horses...

How would *you* deal with YOUR "cotton gin" invention in that scenario?

Reply to
Don Y

No. Claims are often arranged in chains, but not always. You can have several independent claims, but it has to be one invention.

If you don't meet all the limitations of a claim, you don't infringe any claim that depends on it.

There are reasons for the way things are, but the USPTO's examiners are far from perfect and have heavy work loads.

Having good prior art to invalidate their patent will generally make them quiet down--other folks may not have seen that prior art, and of course patents are very important for company valuation in a takeover or IPO.

Folks say that sort of thing about each other all the time, and sometimes it's even true. However, I'd ask you two things:

  1. Do you do dishonest things like that when you feel safe doing it?
  2. If so, why should anyone listen to you; if not, why go round imputing that sort of behaviour to others without proof?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

I gather that English isn't your first language, or something, because those two quotations agree with me, not with you. They apply claim-by-claim, as is very clear in your second quotation. It says "each and every element of a claim must be present", i.e. an infringing device must meet _all_ the limitations of _a_ claim. One claim is enough.

I have more than three dozen patents and have been an expert witness several times in patent and trade secret litigation. Believe me, I've thought about it. (Though I'm still not a lawyer, so get independent professional advice before doing anything silly.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

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