OT: Wealth creation?

Is there any private wealth creation in the US without government involvement? I've heard stories of Henry Ford copying the idea of assembly lines from civil war ideas where the government was involved in the assembly of rifles. Sam Walton copying ideas of supply chain management done by universities, Bill Gate benefiting from research done at universities, and CMOS technology developed with government assistance to RCA . I suppose farmers owe their success to government price controls, and the the list goes on. Is it fair to say anybody who creates anything, owes their success in part to the government?

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Reply to
Bill Bowden
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That seems like an overly broad generalization. The government has its hands into a lot of things. So if you want to draw a connection you can. But I think most of these things would have happened without the government.

Your assembly line is a good example. I would say that was an extension of the idea of interchangeable parts, which are absolutely needed for any sort of assembly line. My understanding is that this was first put to practical use by a gunsmith who was making guns for the US government. Not sure of the time, it may have been Revolutionary rather than Civil war time frame.

Before you say, aha! The government didn't know what the hell he was doing. They came part way through the contract expecting to see some hundreds of rifles done and he showed them how he had all the triggers made and most of the stocks made, etc. They considered canceling the contract for non-performance. So this happened *in spite* of the government.

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Rick
Reply to
rickman

I guess anyone that drinks from a public water supply, or drives on a highway, or depends on a fire department is using government resources.

Big businesses get more out of government, because they gigabuck govt contracts, and don't pay much in taxes, and employ a lot of people in China and Maylasia that don't require FICA or workman's comp or unemployment insurance payments. It's small and medium businesses, the ones that create US jobs, that are clobbered by governmant.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   laser drivers and controllers 
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Reply to
John Larkin

There's plenty of black market economy, and plenty of small wealth creation thats not leaning on govt. But we all drink govt water, drive on govt roads etc.

NT

Reply to
meow2222

It was Eli Whitney, just before the Civil War:

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joe Gwinn

Yes, though less than their used to be. Big business has figured out how to get the government to finance their efforts.

Your examples are somewhat disconnected. When Eli Whitney set out to do interchangeable parts on a government contract it was an example of disruptive technology changing how something was done. The government involvement was that of a big customer not as a participant. The act also spawned peripheral developments as the demand for things like measuring tools took off while the skill of the average gunsmith arguably declined over time.

Most of the rest of your examples are more a case of iterative engineering. The idea is somebody gets an idea then somebody else builds on it. There was a path of steps between Whiney getting parts made then having someone else assemble them and Ford setting up a line where each position did the same task as the product moved down the line.

There are many cases where private dollars funded the basic research and only became an issue as part of the customer base. OTOH the breakup of the Bell system killed Bell Labs as a privately funded basic research institution and started our decline as a technical power.

Reply to
nothermark

You're mixing up "interchangeable parts" with "assembly line."

It was sunny Thursday, giving light, food, and fuel. The government is made of people. People use light, food, and fuel. People are made of food. Therefore, all governments are made of sunshine.

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

Small businesses engaged in tax preparation only exist because of government regulations. They celebrate any new tax laws that make their work more complicated and expensive. And small solar power businesses do pretty well with all the subsidies. Lots of small businesses make out with government help. The worst thing you want to do is start some business where you don't get any government help.

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Reply to
Bill Bowden

Yes, I guess I was. At one time I could disassemble and reassemble an M14 in

60 seconds, but my memory is fading nowadays and I can't remember how that was done.

But the sun only has a limited amount of photons and the federal reserve has an unlimited amount of dollars. Even if the sun burns out in 5 billion years, the fed will still have money to pass out.

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Reply to
Bill Bowden

Absolutely! Government taxes in order to suppress/grossly distort what they tax.

Reply to
Robert Baer

The government taxes in order to fund the justice system, the FDA and the anti-trust regulators.

Each one grossly distorts what criminals, the drug companies and would-be monopolists (treating them as separate categories of self-interested crooks for rhetorical convenience) would otherwise do if they were given free reign.

I'm inclined to think that the world is a better place in consequence.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

Big businesses celebrate it more, since they've got departments that can keep up with the info overload. Small businesses get crowded out.

If people actually wanted what they made, at the prices they'd charge, they wouldn't need subsidies. The need for subsidy is proof society doesn't think what they have is worth the cost.

You mean like when they have to spend countless hours hiring those tax companies you mentioned, just to pay their taxes? That kind of gov't help?

To help one they hurt twenty.

You mean like Apple? Or Ford? Amazon? Google?

Governments are good when they protect your stuff (e.g. from bandits), and bad when they take it and give it away (i.e. act like bandits).

One of those makes people work hard and save, and the other makes them hunker down on defense instead.

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

I will wager that were there not income taxes, you wouldn't be saying this. Because you'd basically never see them.

The economy views taxation as an outage and routes around it. Taxes are also not the primary source of government spending; government debt is. Taxes are basically the "vig".

There are bonds in Britain left over from the Napoleonic Wars. They don't pay them off ... I am not sure why they don't.

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Les Cargill
Reply to
Les Cargill

Those are ... accessories. All governments' primary role is protection of land & property ownership. The FDA and anti-trust could disappear tomorrow and nobody would even notice. Well, if the FDA disappeared, a handful of people might be able to use treatments that are now illegal.

Governments are insurance companies with armies.

I'm not. Because antitrust and "food safety" are myths. Even in the rare cases where there are things like E. Coli outbreaks, the USDA plus civil liability is sufficient.

I don't know why industrial deign to prevent E. Coli seems out of reach but I wonder if it's actually tractable.

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Les Cargill
Reply to
Les Cargill

Probably because they are Perpetual Bonds.

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joe Gwinn

It is because usurers are in control of whether they do or not. There are c ountries which owe each other. for example China holds alot of US debt. Why then does the US hold Chinese debbt ? What's more, China defaulted on a bu nch of debts sold to US entities (not the gov) not too long ago and noting got done about it. But then now a US court has ruled that some South Americ an country must pay its debts which were bought at a serious discount, to e ntities that did not issue the debt.

The money game is complex and has alot of twists. You might as well call it moneychanging and the last kinda politician who didn't work for them kicke d them the hellout of a temple for tunrning it into a goddamn flea market a nd pawn shop.

The kind of people who existed two milennian ago still exist, but are mnore adept and stealthy at their handiwork. And the greed is insatiable.

The lust for money and power is an addiction by definition. You are set for life as is the next three generations of your family. (of textile merchant s my fuvking ass) But there is never enough. Ever.

What's more it is never going to change. As long as humans are in control o f humans rthere will be this shit and all you can do is live and then die. There is no fixing it until there is some sort of an apocolypse or somethin g that pits people against nature or some other common enemy.

Other than each other that is.

Reply to
jurb6006

Yes, but big business has to maintain lots of employees to do all the accounting. I think there are some mobile accounting services that visit customers and do the work on the customer's site. Anyway, I found a usable Xmas present for my relatives doing accounting and taxes. We had to eat Thanksgiving dinner on the coffee table because the dining room table was piled up with customers tax returns and other sensitive stuff. Their excuse was they didn't have a paper shredder to git rid of the obsolete paper work. So, I went to WalMart and got a medium paper shredder for about $50 which eats 6 sheets at a time and automatically shuts off in 5 minutes, or when it gets too hot. They had some cheaper units, but they might jam up and burn out.

-Bill

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Reply to
Bill Bowden

Well, try starting a business in Somalia, and see how far you get.

Reply to
Davej

Try creating one in the U.S. and see how far you get. Or if you already have one, just see how long our new form of government will let you keep it.

Our Grubers released 1,100 new regulations just in the last two weeks, at a glance designed to put several industries (fracking, oil, drilling, coal) out of business just as one goal.

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Do you read all the regs each week to see if any of them apply to you? You should--it's your law-abiding duty. And your productivity will soar, naturally.

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

Yep, there's all sorts of wonderful fallout from beneficent regulations. Why, if taxes were simple and easy to pay, even regular Joes could do it on their own (and understand it)--now who wants that?

O should demand a law that we all wind our mailboxes with big balls of string.

Think of all the industry that would create--string winders, string un-winders, not to mention the trickle-up effect of stimulating the string industry.

Cats would love it too.

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

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