OT: Toyota, Wozniak's Software Problem

Wozniak, in the news again!

Reply to
Martin Riddle
Loading thread data ...

Perhaps if Toyota were to open up their source code, more people could get a look at it and possiby find the bug that .....

Oh. Sorry about that 'open platform' crack, Woz.

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.

I saw that...and I think he is right.

The industry has a BIG problem.

TMT

Reply to
Too_Many_Tools

Too_Many_Tools wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 03:40

Ever since I got my new VW a few years back, I've noticed bad software. Silly things like the dash display freaking out - but resetting quite happily if the ignition is turned off and on again. OK, that's low priority but if "they" cannot maintain standards there, I wonder about the software in the engine ECU, the ABS and so on.

The wife's MINI had a very silly design fault too with the windows. If they get jammed (eg ice), they can lose sense of where the "closed" position is, resulting in attempted overshoot then back off due to (I guess) the "finger's trapped" protection routine. Result, it's cold, freezing rain and the window is half an inch open and refuses to close. Dealer resets this trivially - but how much would either a true "closed" position sensor or enough intelligence to re-ascertain the closed position cost?

Both German engineering (subcontracting issues noted) so I would have expected better...

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
Reply to
Tim Watts

I think some of the failures mentioned in the news have been cases where applying the brakes didn't correct the runaway, which is different from the condition he's talking about. Still, with cruise control fitted, there's a motor there that can apply full throttle, and other software glitches might be causing it to actuate even when cruise isn't activated.

--
John
Reply to
John O'Flaherty

The New York Times recently had an article about bad code in X-ray therapy machines killing people.

formatting link

Large software systems are usually full of bugs. Nearly every FPGA design we do is slowed down by a serious bug or three in the toolset. [1] Luckily, that doesn't kill people.

We are living in the dark ages of computing. The "computer science" people should have this as their first priority, but mostly work at making things worse.

John

[1] Latest one: Xilinx tools are asked to use a simple 1k x 48-bit wide RAM, which should obviously be block ram, three banks of x16. It decides to use 48,000 flipflops and spends hours constructing the associated decode trees. The build log file only logs things *after* they are done, so there's no hint that it's working as opposed to crashed. The support guy who's supposed to be fixing it stalls for a week then goes on vacation. Typical.
Reply to
John Larkin

John Larkin wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 16:36

Yep. But a lot of it is caused by

1) P*ss poor management who value "features" over "robustness and correctness".

2) And software internals are largely invisible to the customer.

3) And a lot of customers want "features" but aren't prepared to spend the money to get "robustness" so that fuels 1). No company except a few who are known for "expensive quality" dare to make better stuff for a little more money and in a little more time, because the stupid customers buy the cheap rubbish "because it's here, now".

*sigh*

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
Reply to
Tim Watts

Leave a Government Motors Equinox in any position other then park, key removed, engine off, over night... See how you like the software in the morning.. Yeah, I know, dumb move on my part, late at night after long trip. All doors will be unlocked and battery will be beyond dead when you wake up. Since the battery is right next to the grill, I see a easy way to break into one....

Steve

Reply to
osr

I just did a dummy myself. I rarely drive my pick-em-up truck. Three weeks ago the new insurance cards came in the mail, so I went into the garage and replaced the old ones. in the glove boxes. Monday I went to take the truck, because the wife needed her car, to be greeted, as you say, battery "beyond dead". Seems I didn't get the truck door fully closed :-(

Took me a couple of hours of cycling to get it to accept a charge... I hope the battery isn't history... it's barely a year old :-( ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Jim Thompson

If he can demonstrate it reproducibly or tell someone exactly how to do it and a suitable chassis number range then I am sure the UK's Top Gear motoring programme would be happy to total one on their test track.

It would be well up their street. Though usually they have it in for caravans....

Whilst I agree that there are software systems that are not at all user friendly this particular example looks a lot more like overworked staff with totally inadequate training and supervision using sophisticated and potentially dangerous new kit. Calibration errors and misapplication in medical radiation treatments date back to the earliest units (Therac).

What is surprising is that the medics didn't appear to notice the warnings which the article said were displayed. That is a human factors and interface problem rather than a software fault.

Same sort of issues dogged Three Mile Island. ISTR they spent the first

15 minutes of the emergency trying to figure out how to silence all the klaxons and alarms so they could hear themselves think!

They are not all that full of bugs. Digital TV and mobile phone technology is almost entirely software driven these days.

The computer scientists have done something about it. There are techniques that can specify software in a completely precise, unambiguous and verifiable way, but it costs too much and requires too much training so they use C/C++ hackers instead.

That is rather funny. Did it work OK if you asked for 1k x 16, 32 or 64 ?

Regards, Martin Brown

Reply to
Martin Brown

With an electronic throttle, its no longer a separate motor. Cruise control is simply an algorithm in the throttle control loop.

I'd bet that if you _don't_ order cruise control on such a vehicle, they just delete the dashboard button and control stalk.

--
Paul Hovnanian  paul@hovnanian.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.

I'm not fond of "fly-by-wire" in any form. I'd be frightened that it was "designed" by some of the "experts" hanging around here ;-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Jim Thompson

like Bill Sloman's 'Die by Wire'?

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

An awful lot can happen in a second, so I've already tested popping the Q45 out of gear and showed my wife what to do... don't think twice, just do it! ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Looks like Toyota wants to look at it...

Too bad you gotta stomp your feet and call the LAtimes to get a response.

Cheers

Reply to
Martin Riddle

n

ontrol

hey

t

=A0 =A0 ...Jim Thompson

=A0 =A0| =A0 =A0mens =A0 =A0 |

=A0 | =A0 =A0 et =A0 =A0 =A0|

=A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 |

ide quoted text -

Be ready to replace an engine...with no compensation from the company.

TMT

Reply to
Too_Many_Tools

I agree...but the companies bring it on to themselves.

I do feel sorry for the technical staff that is working 24/7 on the problem.

TMT

Reply to
Too_Many_Tools

The big issues I see are Toyota and others changed the UI without really accounting for unskilled drivers.

You must HOLD the START key down to stop, not push. [Like Windoze, you must START to STOP...]

The shift has a weird pattern. No clutch.

While they are fixing the gas peddles, Toyota has been silent about other recall fixes such as the ignition switch and making brake application override a throttle input. I read they shall have the override in ongoing production.

--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
David Lesher

And the cable harness. A friend with an E30 BMW added it by installing same.

--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
David Lesher

On Feb 3, 5:06=A0pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote: > On Feb 3, 2:38=A0pm, Jim Thompson > > An awful lot can happen in a second, so I've already tested popping > > the Q45 out of gear and showed my wife what to do... don't think > > twice, just do it! >

My 2001 Dodge Stratus with the 2.7L V6 had engine cutoff if over- revved. In gear under load it killed around 6300 RPM. In neutral if you jump on the throttle it only got to a couple thousand RPM before killing. Apparently it doesn't like a high rate of change in the RPMs. Seemed like a good idea to me. It certainly had less software stupidity than my Prius.

BTW if your choice is dying or replacing the engine/car, you have to ask? Blow up the car and sue them.

G=B2

Reply to
Glenn Gundlach

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.