OT: Tesla Road Test

On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 5:53:22 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote: ....

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I do wish that the manufacturers such as GM, BMW and VW who all support J1772 CCS fast charging would collaborate to get a charging network in place - I think they are reducing their potential market.

kevin

Great, where can I buy one? Oh right, I cant. If I put my name and not-inconsiderable reserve payment in today if I'm lucky I might be driving one by early 2020. I'll likely have been driving a Volt of some type for the better part of five years by that point! As I said, it's not a 2k17 car.

Jeez I'm not getting any younger here, how long am I supposed to sit around waiting on the promise of next year before pulling the trigger on something I can go out and buy off a lot right this minute?

One can always hunt for reasons to not do something, and one will probably find them.

Yes, they've made promises. Anyone can promise anything and get people to put down a (refundable) pre-order payment if the marketing package looks slick enough. GM actually has actually made affordable electric cars, shipped them to the lot, that you can go out and buy today, and they're turning a profit doing it, without all this Silicon Valley VC internet-pre-order flashy startup Web 2.0 nonsense, unlike Tesla which has burned through far more money than IMO is justified, even for an automotive startup.

Once they release their Killer App Model 3 and it's available for me to buy off a lot like a normal person I'll certainly reconsider my opinion, but probably not until then.

And if you think they're going to have 400k units shipped to pre-order customers even by Q1 2019 you're kidding yourself. The Volt and Bolt are finally more humble cars than Tesla's current or future offerings - they aren't on a mission to change the world or whatever like people seem to believe Tesla is. And GM beat Tesla to the punch with them on a gamble that a decent subset of the population, like myself, would be OK with that compromise in exchange for not having to wait around year on year for Elon Musk's big-dream projects to materialize.

Those complaints are valid, but IMO if the Model 3 is released using the "let the first buyers be the beta testers" software-production model that Tesla is using to get them out in a reasonable timeframe and it turns out to be buggy as hell, at least there will be some mostly-satisfied customers of other marques to point out that the problem isn't the razor, but the razor blade.

Exactly. A clear indication of failure. The Chevy Bolt is underselling which means it is a desirable car and the Model 3 has deposits for 400,000 vehicles which means it is a very poor car.

I remember when Detroit was making total crap and Toyotas and Hondas were the cream of the crop. I looked at a number of cars. The US auto makers where still lying and bsing to get a sale and the Japanese dealers were charging "extra dealer profit" labeling it as that on the added sticker.

I really don't get why you feel the need to defend the Bolt. If you had recognized the value of the Tesla instead of swimming against the tide, you would be in line to get one this year. I wish I had heard about the deposit thing much earlier.

In some ways the Bolt is not a 2017 car unless you live in one of I think eleven states where they are sold. I read they will use the 2018 model to introduce the Bolt to the entire country... Just a few months after the Model 3 is shipping across the country.

The model 3 will be shipping in 30 days. You could be first in line if you had been on the ball.

Consider who this should be aimed at.

If you think GM made their schedule of delivering anything but token cars back in October (if that) you are mistaken. I couldn't find any verifiable deliveries until later in November. But that is not the point. I wouldn't have bought one in November. I wouldn't buy one now. I will give the Bolt further consideration before I plunk down my cash on any car, but GM will need to make better efforts before I buy a Bolt.

As to your economic analysis, it is worth what it costs. By the end of the year they will be close to or in full production and bringing in more than enough cash to bring back the black ink. I don't know why you would dispute that without any evidence. There are lots of web pages shaking their heads at the current cash flow, but the current state is irrelevant. When they are shipping 250,000 a year, that will bring in some $10 billion per year. I think they can make a little profit on that.

If you think the Model 3 will be sitting by the dozens in lots waiting for someone to buy them you don't understand much about the Model 3. It will be nearly two years before the backlog is supplied (including all those who rush to sign up once the car is out and all the details are available) and any cars are inventoried. I'm not sure they will create inventory even then. They will be making the model Y by then and they will be creating a large backlog for those.

If I could, I would wait for the model Y. It is supposed to be a SUV/crossover vehicle in the same price range as the Model 3, but I'm tired of waiting. That's why I may end up buying a Model X.

Again, you keep referring to the Bolt rather than GM. I really don't know how good a car the Bolt is. It is just a little small for me I think, but I didn't really get a chance to drive it much. I will be able to take the Model X home for a weekend if I decide I am interested in pursuing it further.

It doesn't matter who is first when a car is not even selling 2,000 a week, opps, make that 2,000 a month! GM has discontinued sales on models that drop that low. Even the Saturn sold 250,000 a year. When it dropped below that it was discontinued.

I'm not suggesting GM will discontinue the Bolt. I mean, it's not like there is any history that would suggest that...

Maybe they realize the level 2 chargers are not a great solution for much of the market. Level 2 chargers take hours to fill a long range EV. I think what is needed is something more like the Tesla supercharger that gives 170 miles of range in just 30 minutes. A level 2 charger is fine for home use and I suppose it is ok when you are going to see a movie. I just think the technology needs to be utilized to provide quicker charges than level 2 devices are capable of.

I don't mean level 2 chargers - I mean the J1772 CCS fast charging (CCS is acronym that indicates the fast charge part of it). BMW, GM and VW all support that standard.

Agreed the standard only goes to 50kW at the moment but there are revisions in the works that would eventually bring it up to 200-300kW (800V @ 350 Amps I think).

kevin

Public chargers out in the wild at shopping centers, coffee shops, etc. are a complete red-herring and will likely only ever make up a small percentage of the EV charging network. There are lots of EVs owners around here of Teslas, Volts, BMWs, all sorts, sometimes I see a half-dozen driving around in just an hour of driving in one day.

I usually never have a problem finding a slot at a coffee-shop charger. Nobody really uses them that much. Sometimes EVs are parked in the spots and not even plugged in - Tesla owners are the most common "offenders."

With 100, 200, 250 miles of range people don't bother with it. They charge at home in their garage while they sleep.

On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 6:16:53 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote: ...

When I had an EV I never used public charging but there is a lack of a char ging infrastructure for fast charging - except for Tesla's Supercharger net work.

I hear that you don't like to travel long distances by car and that's a cho ice but many people including myself do want to occasionally travel a few h undred miles and have their own car at the destination. We tend to take mor e luggage than can be easily handled by air (I'll blame that on my wife, al though I do take my fair share of tools for repairing various family member s items :-).

For example it is not possible to reasonably travel between northern and so uthern California or to Oregon with a Bolt from Silicon Valley.

Since GM, VW and BMW share a common fast charging interface they could coll aborate on setting up a network of fast chargers along the major routes - i t doesn't have to be free, I would be willing to pay provided it was availa ble and maintained. It is no good relying upon a charging stop to find it is out of service as seems to be common among the few that do exist operate d by companies such as NRG.

kevin

Ya, if I were older, retired, and lived out West, say, I might do it more often, but I'm in my 30s and what little vacation time I get I really would prefer not to spend any of it driving - I have to drive myself all over creation day in and day out for work, shopping, and girlfriend as it is.

New England drivers are notoriously nuts, I don't find it to be a particularly enjoyable experience most of the time, more like an anxiety-provoking experience...densely populated windly little streets with traffic lights every 500 yards, stuffed bumper-to-bumper with cars at all hours of the day and night; it's not at all uncommon for it to take a half hour to drive 5 miles in the inner suburbs of Boston like Somerville and Jamaica Plain, even at 8 pm on a weekend.

A fast charger network at rest areas along heavily-traveled routes seems like a reasonable idea, if there's enough long-distance traffic to actually support it.

All the third-party charging companies other than ChargePoint suck balls.

I certainly don't mind paying for the electricity I use, but some of the prices are pretty high. At home my marginal rate is less than $0.11 per kWHr. On the road I might have to pay as much as $0.50 per kWHr. Or others charge by the minute or a single price per charging session. The rates are all over the map.

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I'm jealous - my marginal rate is $0.40.

Yes, the public charging stations are very expensive. Also I heard that at least at one time it was not legal for the charger operating companies to p rice by the kWh as then they would then be considered to be a utility with all the requirements associated. Because of this their fees are by the ho ur regardless of power consumed , which meant that for my Spark EV with its 3kW charger I paid more than cars with 6.6kW chargers.

kevin

Here are the places in eastern New England I could supercharge a Tesla:

Here are the places in eastern New England I can use to charge up the Volt's lil 15 kWh battery in about 3 hours:

I'd say if they want to sell the Model 3 on the ease of charging up its big battery from the supercharger network when not at home to tens of thousands of MA residents they've got their work cut out for them...

Try this link instead:

Who is your utility that you pay $0.40/kWHr for electricity??? The national average is $0.12 or so. It must cost a lot to run an A/C in your home.

They aren't all expensive. The ones that stick in my head are much less than $0.10/kWHr. It was only when I was checking into prices I would pay on trips that I found the other billings.

I wondered about the utility thing myself. I'm not sure how charging by the hour would change that issue. Selling electricity is selling electricity. I suppose they are renting the equipment and giving away the electricity... lol But it would be easy enough to change the regs so selling electricity to autos isn't included in the utility regs.

I believe you said you can go about 40 or 50 miles on this three hour charge. So on a long trip you are happy driving a Bolt for 200 miles and then spending the night recharging for the four hours you will be driving the next day?

Seems to me Tesla has most major trips pretty well covered; superchargers along major routes and at intersecting highways. They are also adding a lot more locations as the Model 3 rolls out.

I wish all the players would be on the same page. Ultimately they all have to charge from the same chargers. But clearly Tesla understands the importance of a charging solution and the others don't have the same level of commitment.

The Gen 2's charge controller is internally limited at 3.6 kW.

Idk. I wouldn't make that trip in an EV.

New Model 3 owners are going to want to use the supercharging stations for much more than just ; the current Tesla drivers I've talked to around southeastern New England who use their car for commuting say they pretty much always just stop by the dealer to charge up every couple of days and most don't have anything more than a 120 volt outlet at home like I do, or maybe a 220 40 amp setup to charge from if they're lucky.

The one on the map just south of Boston is the dealer charger, only one in a 50 mile radius, I drive by there pretty often. IIRC it has 8 bays.

The other manufacturers didn't want to be in the energy distribution business, too. For the rather humble cars they're selling at the 30-40k price point, that was the right call to make. My goal with the Volt was never to have a marriage-like end-to-end "EV Experience" where the manufacturer had my back every step of the way, simply to have a nice, gutsy, modern plug-in hybrid sedan that I could run on gas some of the time, and when I have the opportunity swoop in to one of the hundreds of "free" level 2 chargers around here for a few hours while I shop or go see a movie with the GF, dump a few dozen miles worth of electricity in, and kick my overall MPG numbers up into the 70-80 mpg range on a good week.

That's perfectly fine for me and a lot of other drivers. I think the 3 will be a good product (after the pre-order folks are done beta-testing it), but by the time its in general production it will be one vehicle in a market segment crowded with other options. I think Tesla management themselves disparaged investing in the supercharger network and support as being a waste of money; but if they want to sell the volumes they need to I think they should hope that the other manufacturers don't get "with it" because by say 2022 their supercharger network and level of care might be the only way for them to distinguish themselves from the other players.

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The Volt only has a 3.3kW charger so more capability in the EVSe wouldn't make any difference.

Level 2 indicates 208-240V charging in the US. It doesn't necessarily indicate a charge rate.

Most EVs (but not all) have 6.6kW chargers now Many Plug-in Hybrids have lower rate chargers between 2 and 3.3kW.

For AC charging (called Level 1 or Level 2) the AC to DC conversion is performed in the vehicle and is normally the limit.

kevin

That would be pretty easy for them to get around. Just have two sets of charging stations.

Anyone paying real money to charge a Spark or other Level 2-only vehicle in New England at least is a silly person given how many businesses have their own chargers out front and will give it away for free simply for showing up