OT motorcycle won't work in rain, any pilots out there?

I posted the problem with my 81 Honda back in April and it has only just rained once since then, so I took the bike out to see if the new wires and spark plugs and caps helped.

I did eliminate one possibility before the rain stopped - venting the fuel tank didn't correct the problem so it wasn't a vacuum forming in the fuel system.

This time I was starting out with a cold engine, full tank of gas, and it was really raining hard. I didn't go more than two blocks before the engine started running rough, applying choke caused it to smooth out and run normally, turning off the choke caused it to run rough again, that worked through several cycles. Eventually I let it get too rough and it died. I coasted for about 30 seconds engaged the engine and it fired right up. This seems to work about as well as stopping to rest - engine will always start after a short rest.

I should have tried riding at very slow speed to see if it would keep going - but didn't think of it when I had the chance.

No amount of spraying water over the engine, ignition etc.. will cause it to fail in the driveway. I can dump buckets of water on the ignition and engine without it dying. Even a mist of water from a wet road will cause it to die and rain causes it to die faster.

At this point I'm almost ready to give up on an ignition problem since all the ignition except the transistor switches and pick up coils have been replaced. And the likely hood of two independent electrical systems failing seems too extreme. All the electrical parts have been drenched with water and it runs if the bike is stationary.

My latest and greatest theory is carburetor icing. From what I read, the conditions are favorable - humid between 20-70F sometimes up to 80 F. The problem is more likely to occur when the engine is cooler. It is more likely to occur when backing off on the throttle.

Where it doesn't fit the theory is that using the choke should exacerbate the problem - it doesn't seem to, and while the engine is relatively cool and the problem is occurring it actually helps. When the engine is at full operating temperature the choke is less likely to help it.

I can't get the problem to occur when the bike is stationary, it has to be moving through airborne water in the form of rain or mist (we don't get enough fog here but I suspect a heavy fog might kill it too).

My engine is adjusted too lean according to the color of the spark plugs. With "normal" carburetor icing this shouldn't exacerbate the problem - according to what I read. I didn't change the jets but did put in a less restrictive exhaust when the old one had holes in it - the problem did occur with the old exhaust but with holes in it so I can't say for certain mixture isn't involved somehow.

Any one with more ideas on troubleshooting this problem? Can it be carb ice with richening the mixture making it better? All I read says it should get worse as the mixture is rich, since they assume that the airflow is too restricted. But as the mixture is made rich, I could see where there may be less evaporative cooling from the gas since the gas should evaporate slower with humidity and gas concentration rising.

Have gas formulations changed in some way that might account for it?

I used to be able to keep going in torrential 30 foot visibility without it missing a beat - now it won't go more than two blocks in rain.

Once at highway speed, especially when going fast it seems less susceptible but backing off the throttle then, in rain, will almost always kill the engine.

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On a sunny day (Sun, 03 Jun 2007 16:30:20 -0400) it happened default wrote in :

Does it have an air filter? If so did you ever replace or clean it?

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Will check it tomorrow. I have a couple of new ones I'll change it and wait for rain. It is a relatively large pleated paper filter - but yeah, I haven't checked it in awhile.

Thanks

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Vacuum leak screwing up distributor advance? Change out all your hoses.

...Jim Thompson

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|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
Reply to
Jim Thompson

No vacuum to distributor, no distributor. Two independent ignition systems firing four cylinders - wasted spark on one cylinder when the other is firing.

Only one external vacuum line and it is used to operate a fuel shut off valve so that gas can't flow down (gravity) unless the engine is turning over or running (vacuum turns on the valve).

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That sounds like icing in the carb is a possibility. It is possible that frost buildup in the carb can plug off or cover up a jet, causing it to run lean (or rich). It depends on the carb design and where the frost is forming. Cool damp air is when carb icing normally occurs, especially since the engine is also cooled by the cold air, so the carb does not heat up much from the engine. Were any air ducts or fairing removed / modified / added? Partial constant throttle just after idle is when most icing occurs. Proper jetting is one fix, as is getting heat to the carb. Some carbs (mostly a few snowmobiles and a few rare outboards) have electric heaters built in.

To throw another wrench into things, a rich mixture can be easier to ignite, so the choke could also be compensating for a weak ignition system. The next time it fails, pull a plug wire before it cools down and stick a spare park plug on the wire and crank the engine over to check the spark intensity.

Reply to
Jeff L

Weird.

I know you said you drenched the engine while running and it would not stall. I'm curious if you ever tried reving the engine and then aspirating it with saturated (wet) air? Then let off the throttle.

If that proves useless, then perhaps it is a combination of things. Moist air, engine load, and physical weight on the bike. Also, what altitude are you at? Could that be a variable here?

I'm not a bike mechanic, but had my share of Yahamas in college. (Not enough parking on campus for cars, etc.. You know the drill.)

Good luck!

Reply to
mpm

run

since

much

Proper

few

ignite,

next

park

You may be able to mimic the icing conditions in your driveway by applying a constant light throttle (high idle - say 3000+ rpm) for a few minutes while misting the air intake area with a garden hose.

Also note that when the carb warms up, the ice melts, and things go back to normal. You may try some (eg a bottle or two in the tank) gas line antifreeze in the tank for an added performance boost, and to help prevent ice from forming in the carb. Note that if the bike is running lean, this may lean it out more.

Reply to
Jeff L

Check/replace the CDI charging coil.

Reply to
GPG

Fuel filter?

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Reply to
Homer J Simpson

"default" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

The reason that 'carb ice', is rare in cars and bikes, compared to in planes, is twofold. The first is that it is normal in these vehicles to heat the carburator to prevent it (this has the 'downside' of slightly reducing engine efficiency), and the second is that it is rare to run for prolonged periods at steady throttle settings (and particularly at low throttle settings). Fuels have changed, modern stuff, often contains ethanol, which can make this much worse. However your problem sounds 'extreme'. Has the fuel system been fully drained (if the fuel was left standing for a while, it can pick up moisture). Does the bike have any system to heat the carburettor, or the incoming air?. Is this working?. If the bike is water cooled, then it may be like the common system in car engines, with a thermostatically controlled water jacket on the inlet manifold. If this ad stopped being heated, it'd explain the problem. Some aero engines, accept the slight loss of efficiency involved, and pass the inlet in through the warm oil in the sump (Lycoming units), making them _much_ less likely to have problems. Compared to a Continental engine without this, carb ice is perhaps 50* less common... The choke, shouldn't help, but if there was physical ice in the venturi, movement here, could simply displace the ice. However I'd be much more suspicious of the actual fuel jet being where the problem lay. Perhaps icing here, which leans the mixture off even further, letting the choke help. Historically, this was more of a problem in some countries, and in the past there was a different carb/inlet setup, supplied in some countries to help with this. You might want to look and see if there is such an alternative installation on your machine.

Best Wishes

Reply to
Roger Hamlett

I have worked in a honda shop as a mechanic, as I said above the most likely problem is the charging coil.(Or its connections) Spraying with water while sitting in the driveway under no load will not show the problem. When on the road much of the water comes from underneath. The information you have supplied definitely makes it an ignition problem, you do not say what model.

Reply to
GPG

What are you calling a CDI charging coil? The Clymer's manual calls it a CDI system, but it isn't. There is no source of HV or separate capacitor charging coil. The alternator is an excited field type with electromagnet and brushes - three phase output (and I even saturated that with water although it will start and run with no alternator at all).

There are two pickup coils that turn on the transistor switches. The coils are mounted to what appears to be one end of the crank or camshaft and are 180 degrees apart. The switches themselves are small (less than a cubic inch) aluminum modules with wires. There is a battery connection to both modules, the kill switch interrupts the power from the battery to shut the ignition off.

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Now that I'm thinking carburetor ice, I'll have to try inducing it artificially (misting the air intake while revving and closing the throttle) I did mist the air intake while idling - but probably just got some water on the air filter.

I tried water where ever I thought it didn't belong like the connections between carbs and engine.

What gets me is that the carbs and ignition are more or less independent systems the only things they share are common gas supply and the same +12V to the transistor switches. What ever is stopping the engine is managing to stop redundant systems (four carbs and two ignitions).

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Well it does have a fuel filter I added. I was having a problem with rust from the tank keeping the float valves from sealing properly.

It is between the tank shutoff valve and engine shutoff valve and horizontal with inlet and outlet on the same plane. When the bike sits for an extended period I can see the fuel level in the valve and when cranking it fills with fuel.

What hypothesis suggests it could be clogging when it rains outside?

When I run out of gas (normal - no fuel gauge) the bike will drop power as one carb runs out then slow more as a second one drops out. Most of the time that takes 1/4 to a 1/2 mile while I fumble with the reserve valve and is likely to happen while going uphill.

This failure is much quicker than normal running out of gas and it recovers faster - just switching to reserve will often take another

1/4 to 1/2 mile before it smoothes out again.

There may be a coincidence with going uphill and encountering the problem - but there are so few hills here I can't really say.

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Altitude is between 34 feet above sea level and at most 71 feet when I visit the wife. The land is flat for the most part, under water when the earth was formed, sand peat and no rocks to speak of.

Carbs are "constant velocity" types. Twist grip opens a butterfly valve but the slide doesn't go up until the vacuum builds enough to raise it, opening the air path, and withdrawing a needle from the main jet allowing more gas into the airstream.

It has been my experience that this type of carb can work 0-11,000 feet with no adjustments and little loss of power. (unlike the old '72 Triumph)

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That it is

Well it is normally very humid here. I just filled the tank two days earlier from nearly empty before trying it yesterday in the rain. The fuel level was only inches from the cap. Normally the water in the fuel, if any, will be at the bottom of the float bowls and each bowl has a drain screw and I can see any water globs in the transparent tubes when I open it. - but if they are adding alcohol to the fuel it may mix with the alcohol and not be so easy to spot?

No that doesn't sound likely. I remember reading that the way to tell if a fuel has alcohol is to put it in a graduated cylinder and add a known quantity of water to it. When the water mixes with the alcohol it drops out of solution with the gas and the oil / water separation level is higher than the specific quantity of water would justify - but that may just apply to a lot of water . . .

I don't use a lot of gas, but take a 250 mile trip once a month and use the bike for grocery shopping (12+ miles) at least once a week, about 15 gallons a month go through it.

No heat at all for the carburetors. When the engine is hot, cooling air from the fins can flow past the carbs or rise from the hot crankcase while standing still. Coupling between the carbs and engine ports is via a piece of reinforced rubber hose about two inches long with hose clamps at the carb and port. (and I tried spraying water around the area of the connections while troubleshooting it stationary)

What I need is a good way to rig a water mist for the intake while riding the bike. Some kind of nebulizer or atomizer rigged right to the air box opening. Try hard enough and I'll induce a problem even if it isn't the one I'm troubleshooting.

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1981 Honda Custom 750 DOHC - two pick up coils for each ignition system - 12V via the ignition switch, and kill switch is applied to a pair of transistor modules that feed the coils.

No separate HV capacitor charging circuit or energy transfer ignition.

I've sprayed water around the pick up coil housing - I've a frozen screw holding the cover on and no way to get it off short of cutting the head of the screw off or drilling it out. It has three counter sunk oval head Philips screws holding it on. Two of them I could loosen with my impact driver - the third still has the tip of the impact driver bit imbedded in it - broke off before the screw turned.

I even moved the little rubber cable gasket away and misted directly into it. The outside of the housing mates closely with the engine case and to keep water out I added 360 degrees of aluminum tape around the seam. (after waiting weeks for any moisture I induced to dry out) This tape is real aluminum metal and has a very aggressive adhesive and soft enough that it will smooth over contours for a good seal.

So, while I can't get to the pickup coils, I doubt they are getting any water in them.

The manual's schematic shows a connector somewhere between the pick up coils and connector at the modules. It would seem likely it is in the starter motor housing since the PU coil wires are routed through there and the schematic shows it picking up another single wire for the oil warning light.

Any idea where that connector is on that model? I'd like to inspect it. I had the starter motor cover off - the gaskets are in good shape and it appear clean and dry in there - but I'd still like to find that connector and look at it.

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Have you checked that the kill switch is not intermittent or shorting when wet?

Reply to
Greg Neill

Sounds like you found the problem ;-)

Certainly fits your starved fuel symptoms.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
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Jim Thompson

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