OT: IPCC too conservative with AGW predictions - danger worse than stated

In a recent Scientific American article the predictions of the IPCC about AGW and catastrophic climate change may have been, and continue to be, too conservative, and the reality is probably more dire than thought.

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And yet the AGW and climate change skeptics/deniers claim just the opposite. The reality is that Big Energy wants people to believe their hype and continue with business as usual until the last drop of "low hanging fruit" is plucked, which will keep their profits steady and then even increase when oil becomes scarce and more expensive to extract. And the newer oil drilling ventures, as well as coal mining and fracking, have dire environmental impacts that may soon make clean water more precious than oil.

Two weeks ago Dr. Will Candler presented at our

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meeting, where the topic was "Climate Change and Sandy: What's next?". His powerpoint slide presentation showed some alarming new statistics that predict a very profound effect, and there may be some "positive feedback

loops" that further destabilize the climate. Here are some links to his materials:

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(99 kB)
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(8 MB)
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(1.3 MB)

Something he said, however, makes me rethink what our priorities should be. In essence, AIUI, there is a fairly large amount of inertia that shows a lag of perhaps 20-50 years, so we are now feeling the effects of our activities in the 1950s to 1970s, during which time we were accelerating our consumption of fossil fuels and drastically increasing concentrations of

greenhouse gases. And even if we stopped this consumption right now, the

effects will continue to worsen for 20 years or more before possibly improving.

My comment was that our priorities should be to take steps to deal with the expected increase in violent storms and droughts and other environmental

events, to protect ourselves from them, because no matter what we do about curbing our influence on climate, we cannot change the inevitable disasters that will happen in the next two decades. We could have built seawalls that would have saved much of the areas devastated by Sandy, at a cost of about

1/4 that which will now be needed to repair the damage, and of course nothing can replace the hundreds of lives that were lost.

The problem is that we have become reactive rather than proactive, and our policy of not being willing to spend money in advance to provide protection and rebuild our aging, failing infrastructure, will cost us many times as much in the future. This would also create many more jobs and would be a

boost to the economy as private enterprises will perform much of the work and supply the materials. We cannot afford Draconian cost cutting measures and austerity policies, even if we must use deficit spending for awhile as a Keynesian stimulus.

Of course, we also need to implement the same policies as have been proposed for reducing energy consumption and switching to sustainable and clean energy sources. This will not really impact the expected volatility and severity of climate change and natural disasters, at least for the foreseeable future, but it will help us retain more of our natural resources, such as oil, which are needed for things other than energy. Oil is a precious resource and simply burning it as a "cheap" source of energy is no longer tenable.

Paul

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Reply to
P E Schoen
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Sandy was a normal "100 year" storm, maybe a bit early (the last big one was

1938) but these storms aren't as punctual as they might be.

The deadliest hurricane in US history was in 1900.

Sure, there should be levees, and houses built higher along the coast, to stand a storm surge. And get those transformers and diesel backups out of the basements. And no Federal flood insurance to let people build in harm's way.

That's not news.

Why is it that every predicted consequence of more CO2 is universally dreadful? Floods, storms, disease, extinction, drought, starvation, exclusively dire stuff. And they can't even predict the weather two weeks in advance.

AGW phobia is a silly fad. The public is bored with it already.

A while? We're going to have "stimulus" until the economy collapses in a huge debt/interest-rate/inflation disaster. It's inevitable.

Natural gas. There seems to be astounding amounts of it.

This will not really impact the expected volatility and

We keep finding more.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

stand

dreadful?

Too bad the meat popsicles aren't tired of it.

Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

And yet the AGW and climate change skeptics/deniers claim just the opposite. The reality is that Big Energy wants people to believe their hype and continue with business as usual until the last drop of "low hanging fruit" is plucked, which will keep their profits steady and then even increase when oil becomes scarce and more expensive to extract. And the newer oil drilling ventures, as well as coal mining and fracking, have dire environmental impacts that may soon make clean water more precious than oil.

Two weeks ago Dr. Will Candler presented at our

formatting link
meeting, where the topic was "Climate Change and Sandy: What's next?". His powerpoint slide presentation showed some alarming new statistics that predict a very profound effect, and there may be some "positive feedback loops" that further destabilize the climate. Here are some links to his materials:
formatting link
(99 kB)
formatting link
(8 MB)
formatting link
(1.3 MB)

Something he said, however, makes me rethink what our priorities should be. In essence, AIUI, there is a fairly large amount of inertia that shows a lag of perhaps 20-50 years, so we are now feeling the effects of our activities in the 1950s to 1970s, during which time we were accelerating our consumption of fossil fuels and drastically increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases. And even if we stopped this consumption right now, the effects will continue to worsen for 20 years or more before possibly improving.

My comment was that our priorities should be to take steps to deal with the expected increase in violent storms and droughts and other environmental events, to protect ourselves from them, because no matter what we do about curbing our influence on climate, we cannot change the inevitable disasters that will happen in the next two decades. We could have built seawalls that would have saved much of the areas devastated by Sandy, at a cost of about

1/4 that which will now be needed to repair the damage, and of course nothing can replace the hundreds of lives that were lost.

The problem is that we have become reactive rather than proactive, and our policy of not being willing to spend money in advance to provide protection and rebuild our aging, failing infrastructure, will cost us many times as much in the future. This would also create many more jobs and would be a boost to the economy as private enterprises will perform much of the work and supply the materials. We cannot afford Draconian cost cutting measures and austerity policies, even if we must use deficit spending for awhile as a Keynesian stimulus.

Of course, we also need to implement the same policies as have been proposed for reducing energy consumption and switching to sustainable and clean energy sources. This will not really impact the expected volatility and severity of climate change and natural disasters, at least for the foreseeable future, but it will help us retain more of our natural resources, such as oil, which are needed for things other than energy. Oil is a precious resource and simply burning it as a "cheap" source of energy is no longer tenable.

Paul

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A one child policy across the majority of the developed and developing world is likely to be key to any meaningful progress. Can't see it happening.

Reply to
Bruce Varley

Spin.

Talk about a lack of deep thought. Gee, I wonder if public services are a tad more efficient in 2012 than in 1900. Could it be the horse and buggy crowd sucked at saving lives? Could it be construction is better now? Could it be your comparison sucks?

dreadful?

Climatology is not weather prediction. Do some research.

A damn good thing nobody of any consequence believes you. Oh, say hello to Michelle Bachmann for me.

Sure, if you don't mind the toxic effects of fracking.

What we find is deeper and harder to extract. The quality is lower. If anything, the plan should be to burn the natural gas and save the oil for other purposes.

I'd suggest you stick to electronics, but then again, we've seen your knowledge in that arena.

Reply to
miso

I have already proposed monetary rewards for remaining childless or being sterilized, but most people seem to equate that with fascism and genocide. Perhaps they prefer starvation as a kinder, gentler alternative. If it is a religious issue, then I say that the Church should support every unwanted child that could have been prevented, from infancy to adulthood. If they are "gifts from God", then let God (or His earthly minions) care for them.

Paul

Reply to
P E Schoen

Is that really the best you can do in terms of a response? It seems really immature. Have you not reached puberty yet?

Paul

Reply to
P E Schoen

It isn't the only example of "extreme weather" around. Any individual case of extreme weather is just statistical noise, but if you cast your net wide enough you find that we've been seeing significantly more of them recently.

stand

dreadful?

They aren't, but too many of them are negative for comfort. And the worrying predictions do get more media coverage.

As we persistently remind you, climate isn't weather. This was obvious to John van Neumann, and he managed to convince quite a few other people of this. The expanding circle of enlightenment hasn't yet included you, and you may be sea-green incorruptible.

The denialist propaganda campaign works well on people who don't know much. You definitely seem to have more than your fair share of ignorance and complacency

Actually, you'll have it until the economy condescends to start expanding at about 3% per year rather than the current 2%. Then the stimulus spending would promote inflation rather than economic growth, and your government would want to taper it off rapidly.

You and James Arthur are convinced that it isn't doing anything at the moment, which leaves you ill-placed to understand why anybody would feel the need to stop it.

Burning less carbon in the processing generating each kilowatt/hour of energy is a good thing, but not good enough to be a long term solution. If we don't want to trash the planet and engineer a human population crash, we need to get to zero carbon per kilowatt hour and stay there for about a millenium or so.

Nowhere near fast enough to make it last for the next few million years, which is as long as we can expect to last as a species, always assuming that we don't manage to engineer our own equivalent of the asteroid impact that did for the non-avian dinosaurs.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

Apparently, by extracting the shale gas in some areas, they are rendering vast amounts of shale oil economically unrecoverable by reducing the permeability of the rocks or some such thing.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward" 
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com 
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

dreadful?

Miso is well ahead in the pursuit of this year's "village" certification.

The Sandy culprit is a natural oscillatory condition between the Atlantic and the Pacific oceans... presently (for a few more years) the Atlantic temperature is rising and the Pacific's is falling. Hurricane's are going to get worse.

Politicians know this but can't annoy the "base" by being realistic. So they're just dragging their feet until the next storm takes Staten Island away altogether >:-} ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

People in China and India and Africa want floors and lights and heat in their houses. They want clean running water for their kids and their crops. They want tractors and trucks to grow more food. They want schools and hospitals. They deserve to get all that, and they will. All those things need energy. Get used to it.

More CO2 and more rainfall will improve crop yields. That's good for them.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

When you can't make the data fit the FACTS, invent another loony theory... "inertia" ?>:-}

I really hope those on the loony left succeed. I see a balls-to-the-wall depression (and resulting civil war when the lefties resort to direct thieving) as the only solution to "rebooting" the USA in its original form.

(I really hope the civil war starts before I die... shooting lefties ought to be great fun... I think I'll start in Baltimore... I'll have my relatives there scout out "the usual suspects" :-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

want

Getting more energy doesn't necessarily involve burning fossil-carbon.

Only if the rain falls in the right places, which isn't guaranteed and isn't - in fact - all that likely. Even the simplest and most obvious effect of global warming - a warmer climate - is going to change the nature of the crops you'd want to grow in any given place. The less easily predictable second order effects - like - for instance - turning off the Gulf Stream, as seems to have happened twice at the end of the most recent ice age, can really make a mess of the growing conditions in the affected areas. Not that John Larkin is equipped to absorb this information, or anything else too complicated to get printed in the right-wing media.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

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Jim-out-of-touch-with-reality-Thompson hasn't got a clue what constitutes the facts on which the case for anthropogenic global warming is based, nor the mechanisms that make it difficult to reverse.

An insight that he seems to share with James Arthur, though it's James Arthur's professed principle that would lead to a balls to wall depression, while James has this happy - but dangerous - delusion that his principles, if applied, would free the American entrepreneurial class to generate a whole lot of new business just as they did between

1929 and 1933.

Jim Thompson really seems to think that the lefties wouldn't shoot back. Granting his often published plan to start shorting them as soon as an civil war gets under way, his neighbours have probably already planned their own pre-emptive strike. One can only hope that Jim's wife and family are elsewhere when things start falling apart, as they could do if the Tea Party is as silly as it looks.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

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dreadful?

huge

This is a much more sophisticated argument than we usually get from Jim. Is somebody talking sense in the right-wing media?

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
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Right, studies as early as the 80s established several deleterious effects on agricultural plant life grown in a high CO2 environment: 1) less nutriti onal content per unit mass, 2) more competition from weeds requiring applic ation of herbicide to maintain yields, and 3) more crop damage from insects which exist in larger populations due to extended warm weather breeding se asons. And these effects are in addition to the usual effects of much more volatile weather patterns such as extended heat waves, drought, high winds, hail, and floods. And there are now occurring unanticipated biological fac tors such as plant viruses and various kinds of microbial and bacterial pla nt pathogens being spread around by migrating insect populations moving int o areas where previously they could not survive.

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Yes, "studies" always show that every possible effect of more CO2 is catastrophic or worse. Floods, drought, storms, pestilences, drowned polar bears, always targeted to the places where they will do the most damage.

No wonder that Bill "Dr. Doom" Sloman is depressed.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

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California is already at its limit: Regarding California?s total water supply, there is not enough deve loped water now to serve all interests at their desired levels (considering enterprise economics as well as operational factors). There is also little political will (e.g., fears that voters will not support the $11 billion w orth of water infrastructure and management improvement bonds in the midst of a serious recession48 ) and scarce economic resources available to build new infrastructure as both State and Federal budgets are currently impacte d by large annual deficits and long?term debt.

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Other areas of the country will lose their agricultural capacity in total.

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now to serve all interests at their desired levels (considering enterprise economics as well as operational factors). There is also little political will (e.g., fears that voters will not support the $11 billion worth of water infrastructure and management improvement bonds in the midst of a serious recession48 ) and scarce economic resources available to build new infrastructure as both State and Federal budgets are currently impacted by large

Most of California's water is sold to big-business farms at absurdly low prices. They grow cotton and rice, which consume huge amounts of that cheap water. But as the Central Valley salts up, things will correct themselves.

But "in total"? Please. We already grow too much stuff. You are linearly extrapolating tiny effects, or maybe linearly extrapolating total illusion.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

AGW,,

true or false is not the issue the issue is what you think should be done...

nobody opposes research into alternative energy sources...

nobody opposes deploying alternative energy sources where they are economically viable

nobody opposes energy conservation

nobody opposes planting more trees

these are all GOOD things.

but many sensible people do oppose creating a new bureaucracy to impose another form of taxation (carbon tax and credits)

many do oppose regulations requiring the building of expensive carbon sequestration equipment

don't bother arguing about the validity of AGW, instead discuss what you propose to do about it.

Mark

Reply to
Mark

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