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Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 09:26:49 -0700, John Larkin

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Why not?  The subject makes him ill.  Maybe he'll go away.

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 2:35:29 AM UTC+10, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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ee.org:
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ote:
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y to be useful.
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xide in the atmosphere which costs us all money by changing the environment
 for the worse. Putting at tax on carbon encourages people to get their ene
rgy in some other way that doesn't damage the environment.
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ss?
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Oddly enough, I know exactly why krw thinks that. He's a deeply unpleasant  
person who never misses an opportunity to post something offensive, no matt
er how irrational his fantasy is.

In reality, thinking about work makes me nostalgic. I do stuff for the NSW  
banch of the IEEE, like editing our newsletter

http://sites.ieee.org/nsw/newsletters/

but there aren't enough of them to keep me busy.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 2:26:56 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
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e.org:
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te:
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 to be useful.
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ide in the atmosphere which costs us all money by changing the environment  
for the worse. Putting at tax on carbon encourages people to get their ener
gy in some other way that doesn't damage the environment.
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s?
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He might tell you about the most recent job he applied for - and probably w
on't get.

I do keep applying for jobs - doing the sort of work I did for some forty y
ears, with some success - but apparently I'm now too "senior" to get them .
..

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 2:16:00 AM UTC+10, Lasse Langwadt Christensen w
rote:

.org:
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e:
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to be useful.
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de in the atmosphere which costs us all money by changing the environment f
or the worse. Putting at tax on carbon encourages people to get their energ
y in some other way that doesn't damage the environment.
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?

No. Income tax is collected to pay for government services that keep societ
y running well enough to let you earn that income. Sales taxes - now value  
added taxes - work the same way, but bear more heavily on the poor, which i
s regressive, so get balanced by a progressive income tax whcih extracts mo
re from the rich (who have more to spare).

Carbon tax is more like the high taxes on tobacco which are intended to dis
courage people from smoking, and on ethanol which are intended to discourag
e people from drinking too much. The side effect of encouraging smuggling i
s unfortunate, and limits the magnitude and effectiveness of the tax.

Both pay off in fewer days of sickness and lower pressure on the health ser
vices.

In Australia a carbon tax would pay off in fewer bush-fires and fewer tropi
cal cyclone flood events (not that Australia's contribution to the global C
O2 budget is all that impressive).

https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/science/each-coun
trys-share-of-co2.html

Australia is at 16 in the would league table, responsible for 1% of the tot
al emissions. China is the leader, with 28% of the emissions, and the US se
cond at 15%.

Australia does rather better on a per head basis - it sits at 16.3 metric t
ons of CO2 per capita, just behind the USA at 16.4.

https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/science/each-coun
trys-share-of-co2.html

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world

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Once it hits the tipping point, you have lost control. You can't bring it  
back.
  
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Carbon tax is a good idea. It can be abused.
  
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Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world

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Of course, this "tipping point" is nothing but a figment of your
religion.  
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Of course, increased taxes are the *reason* behind the whole AGW scam
to begin with.  Gotta control the masses!

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 1:22:57 AM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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t  
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We had one a while back  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleocene%E2%80%93Eocene_Thermal_Maximum

The fact that krw doesn't know about it, and considers it a figment of some
body else's imagination, isn't all that surprising. Most of the stuff he po
sts about are figments of his imagination - he calls them "facts" - but he  
doesn't know enough to realise that some of his ideas are wrong, and others
 misleadingly over-simplified.
  
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Krw does like to think that. It saves him from having to learn about the ob
servations that makes anthropogenic global warming something that is happen
ing right now. Since krw seems to have absolutely no capacity to learn anyt
hing at all, he may not have the capacity to process a better-informed conc
ept.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 7:22:57 AM UTC-7, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:

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Oh, no, it's the possibility (in a complex system) that some phenomena
have hysteresis,so happen abruptly and/or are very difficult to reverse.    

Like, blowing a fuse: turn down the power, it doesn't repair the fuse.
Or popping a popcorn kernel: you can't turn the heat down fast enough
 to stop it mid-pop.
Or making toast 'just cook until it's burnt, and then twenty seconds less'.

You can argue that the Earth, atmosphere and surface rocks, waters, life,
s such a well-understood system that this cannot happen unexpectedly.  

But, that would be fatuous.

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
wrote:

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Possibly?  Yet you lefties rag on Christians.  Amazing.

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No, I'm arguing that you don't know.  You're proposing that we give up
trillion$ and keep billions in abject poverty because your religion
says the alternative is the apocalypse. Gee, even Christians want to
help people out of poverty.

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Your "proof"?  Certainly.

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 11:56:17 AM UTC+10, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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g it  
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Righties think that religion is real, rather than a form of comforting self
-deception.
  
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s'.
,

The precautionary principle is the one that you apply when you don't know.

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Cutting back on fossil fuels is certainly going to cost the Exxon Mobil and
 the Koch brothers billions that they might have earned by digging up fossi
l carbon and selling it as fuel. Letting them keep on doing it is going to  
cost the rest of us billions in paying for the damage created by the more e
xtreme weather events driven by progressive global warming.

Using renewable energy sources isn't going to condemn anybody to abject pov
erty. Solar power is now as cheap in Australian as power generated by burni
ng fossil carbon. It isn't always there when you want it, but Elton Musk's  
battery pack in South Australia is storing a significant chunk of it to cov
er some of the gaps.

The federal government is planning on spending a few billion to upgrade the
 Snowy Mountains hydroelectric scheme to serve for pumped storage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_Mountains_Scheme

We can move over to renewable energy without compromising on our energy use
 or our standard of living. The process of investing in the renewable energ
y generation is going to be expensive, but no more expensive than dealing w
ith the consequences of unrestrained progressive global warming.

It doesn't take too many tropical cyclones to do a billion's worth of prope
rty.

Hurricane Harvey was good for about $150 billion in property damage, Katrin
a for $108 billion, and Sandy for $65 billion.

Global warming seems unlikely to make hurricanes more frequent, but it is e
xpected to make them more powerful - they feed on ocean water warmer than a
bout 26 degree Celcius, and the one degree of warming we've had so far mean
s that there's rather more of that around every summer.

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Usually by working at low wages in Christian-owned sweatshops.
  
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As if krw knew what might constitute "proof" or how to test it. His sole te
st is whether an idea matches his own delusions.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 6:56:17 PM UTC-7, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:

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In short, 'Ignoramus et ignoramibus'.   That's dark-ges talki.

But the germ of truth is, it's an unknown, and it's dangerous.
That's worth thinking about, and  sane  persons
 do not dismiss such things lightly.

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
wrote:

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Bullshit.  It's scientific talk.  You don't and can't know but want to
reverse the course of civilization anyway.  You want to starve people
for something that even you admit that you can't know.  That's
genocide.

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You don't (can't) know but it's dangerous anyway. That's what passes
for science, in your world.  Amazing.

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Just like all religions.  You can't know but worry about appeasing
your Gods anyway.  ...and you disparage Christians.  Amazing, really.
I guess Christians should demand increased taxes and maybe they'd get
your respect.

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 11:12:45 PM UTC+10, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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Reversing anthropogenic global - or at least slowing it right down - doesn'
t involve starving anybody. What krw hasn't noticed is that solar power is  
now roughly as cheap as power-generated by burning fossil carbon. It's not  
always there when you want it, and battery packs and various forms of pumpe
d storage add a minor cost, but at the moment we generate about 1.3% of our
 power from solar cells. Bumping that up to 13% will probably halves the pr
ice, and the cost due to the economies of large scale manufacturing. It wor
ked for the last two factor of ten scale-ups and will probably work again f
or the subsequent scale up, when we start installing solar cells in places  
that have never had electric power before.

In a sense, slowing down anthropogenic global warming is an incidental adva
ntage of spreading really cheap electric power across the globe. Far from s
tarving people, it's going to improve their lives no end.

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We do know that the anthropogenic global warming that we have had so far -  
about one degree Celcius - has markedly increased the frequency of extreme  
weather events.  

Even krw should be able to appreciate that Hurricane Harvey was dangerous,  
as Katrina had been earlier.

Krw doesn't know much, so the evidence that anthropogenic global warming is
 dangerous has escaped him. Anything he doesn't already know isn't "true" a
nd anybody who tells him a "fact" that he doesn't know (and doesn't want to
 know) is a "liar".

He's a lunatic, but not obviously dangerous enough to get put away - or eve
n deprived of his guns.
  
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Krw can't tell the difference between religion and science - how could he?

Some Christians do need to be disparaged. John Christy and Roy Spencer are  
top flight climate scientists who don't actually believe in anthropogenic g
lobal warming - which makes them two of the ten out of the top three hundre
d climate scientist who don't. Their scepticism isn't driven by rational co
nsiderations, but rather by their sincere - if demented - born-again Christ
ian beliefs. I think I can identify two of the remaining eight holdouts, an
d both of them have similarly bizarre and irrational motivations.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On 01/04/2018 02:36, whit3rd wrote:
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The main one is causing the permafrost locked methane to escape - but it  
will only result in a lot of low lying land and major cities being lost.  
It would take an enormous effort to undo it once it starts to run away.

But no matter how hard we may try we don't really have enough CO2 to  
turn the Earth into a Venusian hell hole at this distance from the sun.

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Cynic's ISO9001 toast is cook until burnt and then scrape the black  
layer off until toast is uniformly matching Pantone Toast 16-1331.

--  
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On 31/03/2018 06:16, Steve Wilson wrote:
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Your faith in quick fixes is probably misplaced.
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Which particular tipping point are you thinking of?

We are still a very long way short of the most crucial tipping point  
where water boils at the equator which would get us into Venus style  
thermal runaway. I tried to do this once to one of the earlier climate  
models that I was given access to by adding 3% of new CO2 in a step.
(that is approximately 2^10 increase so a global 30K rise)

It was bad news for coastal cities but the temperature difference  
between poles and equator flattened out so I didn't boil the seas. It  
took a few hundred years to sort itself out to new equilibrium.

It might be possible that the planet's weather moves to a new attractor  
with different modes to what we are used to in future. It could make  
drier some equatorial zones uninhabitable and release loads of methane  
from the permafrosted tundra locking in a deep hysteresis. Models  
suggest that high latitiudes and the poles warm fastest and this seems  
to be observed.

The most likely one we could trigger is shutting down the Atlantic  
conveyor which would certainly alter the distribution of temperatures  
too but could easily see the UK and NW Europe getting more latitude  
appropriate (ie very much colder) weather in an overall warmer world.
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Yes you can although it may take a massive effort. There is probably  
nothing we can do even with our worst business as usual trash the planet  
scenarios that could not be undone by provoking the Yellowstone caldera  
into full scale vulcanism. It would of course totally destroy the USA  
but would save the world. That seems an equitable trade to me.
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The carbon tax is a complete mess and a spivs charter. It is worth  
pushing for improved fuel economy and better insulation - basically  
taking all the no-regrets measures and low hanging fruit to conserve  
fossil fuel resources rather than squandering them needlessly.

--  
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 5:22:51 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
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Just my attempt to push back against the story that the sky is falling.

We could fly more airplanes to make more contrails and block more  
sunlight.  

George h.  
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Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 11:33:13 PM UTC+10, George Herold wrote:
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The only people who are peddling the story that the sky is falling are deni
alist web sites, along with the story that the only way of cutting CO2 emis
sions is by taking society back to the stone age.

It's perfectly possible to replace fossil carbon generated energy with powe
r from renewable sources. Doing it fast would be a huge capital investment,
 and doing it too slowly might let anthropogenic global warming get bad eno
ugh to make that kind of capital investment difficult.

John Larkin - who gets all his climate change information from denialist we
b-sites - is guilty of spreading both myths.  

International air travel might have to be scaled back quite a bit for a whi
le - using liquid hydrogen or liquid ammonia as jet fuel would be tricky.

<snip>

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney




Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 10:22:46 +0100, Martin Brown

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CO2 has been over 4000 PPM in the past. How did the planet ever
recover from that?


--  

John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
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Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 1:21:53 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
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https://skepticalscience.com/co2-higher-in-past.htm

that was some 300 million years ago, and the sun was few percent dimmer then. Apparently you had to have about 3000ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere to avoid glaciation.

The planet would have recovered from the high CO2 level the way it always does - erosion grinds up dolomite, which absorbs CO2 to form carbonates which get laid  down and buried.

https://www.cogentoa.com/article/10.1080/23312041.2016.1205324.pdf

John Larkin is being as ignorant as ever.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
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Here are three good articles:

https://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-higher-in-past-intermediate.htm

https://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-higher-in-past.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_in_Earth%27s_atmosphere

Regarding your question about coral, I can't find your post, but there have  
been a number of extinctions and regrowths over spans of millions of years.

Here's a good one:

http://globalreefproject.com/coral-reef-history.php

The point is conditions hundreds of millions of years ago were very different  
than they are now. Solar output was lower, methane and other gasses were  
higher, continents were shifting and breaking up. So you can't show a direct  
comparison with conditions today.


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