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Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world

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Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and  
making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die,  
and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
  
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Max_Planck

Give credit where credit is due. That illuminates the world.


Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 3:57:07 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
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Right, that can certainly happen.  Sometimes there're nudges  
from industry... "The case against sugar" (kinda a tedious book)
talks about the sugar industry, and how nutritional science got  
focused on 'fat' as the problem in our diet.  

Typically what happens is the old farts die, and new kids look at  
the data and ask different questions.  That's the hope anyway.

Hey let's look at the noise in the temperature data.  
Oh, by noise I mean the variation in daytime highs and lows
With gobal warming we should be getting more variation,
I guess if we've only warmed one degree out of 300 it might  
be a hard signal to see.... you need a lot of averaging.  

George H.  
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Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 12:57:07 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
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Provocative, but why does that apply to science?  There aren't any quorums,
votes, or polls in scientific method.   A PhD expertise is always self-declared, right before
being vigorously defended.   That'll continue to be the system until a better one appears.

What two examples can you offer, from history, of 'entire fields of specialists'
being 'all wrong'?  


Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 7:56:45 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
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Only because I read it recently, there was an example from the  
"the case against sugar".  In the 1940's leading science was in Germany,
they had a view of sugar that included it's chemical response to the  
body... the insulin response.  After the war science's center moved to
the US and there the view of nutritionalists was that it was all about
energy balance, calories in vs out.  So all calories were equal, and the  
chemical effects on the body secondary.  (The sugar industry helped push
this idea some.)  Now those ideas are slowly changing.  

George H.  

PS I think particle physics has lost it's way.  This from the bbc
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-43584969

And then there's string theory... a nice blog here.
http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/

GH

I don't think any of these things mean science is always wrong.
It's just a messy human endeavor, a good history of science should  
include all the mistakes... "those who don't learn from history..."      

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 1:23:38 AM UTC+11, George Herold wrote:
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t
ums,
declared, right before
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better one appears.
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cialists'
  
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It hasn't "lost it's way". There's never been a neat obvious path for it fo
llow, and business is all about getting more results and seeing if any of t
hem are odd.

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String theory has been interesting for a few decades now, but doesn't seem  
to be going anywhere useful. Variations like quantum loop gravity may do be
tter. It's a lot cheaper than big accelerators, or even LIGO set-ups (Laser
 Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory).  
  
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It's a process of exploration. The process of working out that an area isn'
t worth exploring isn't profitable, but it isn't a mistake either - until y
ou've had good look, you don't know what you might find.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 07:23:32 -0700 (PDT), George Herold

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Science is often wrong, but in some fields the wrongness is corrected
by experiment. Physics just keeps getting incrementally better, for
example.

Areas that are not corrected by solid experiment can be, and usually
are, wildly wrong, and swing in fads. Without experiment, all that's
available is self-serving collective opinions.

Computers have enabled massive cross-correlation studies, which
through pure noise in the data, turn up large numbers of apparent
causalities. The noise correlations get published.






--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 9:04:53 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

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No, 'science' means knowledge and understanding.   It is not
morally, or ethically, wrong.   Falsehoods are often considered,
as hypotheses, but that isn't 'wrong', either:  a hypothesis isn't
the same as an accepted (theory or measurement or principle) thing.

The ambiguity of language isn't a toy.   If you mean one or more
scientists is considering a wrong hypothesis, that's what you should
say.   Be prepared to be ignored, however, if you don't
suggest a better hypothesis, or a feasible test case.   'Ignoramus et
ignoramibus' isn't an acceptible principle, now that the dark ages are over.

As long as there isn't a bookburning or other destructive event,
any field of knowledge and understanding (any science) gets
better.   What else could happen?

Interesting case: the Nobel in medicine, 2015, to Youyou Tu, came from
her developments on a previous documented antimalarial,  which
knowledge came from herbal medicine records.   Earliest records mention
the antimalarial effect in 200 BC.   That's some impressive archive depth!

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world

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Interesting, but the most important question in front of humanity is global  
warming. This is a do or die issue. Please focus on the issues and the  
consequences.

Thanks



Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world

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You can elect to die if the temperature rises a couple of degrees C
(which it very well may not). I assume you'd die of pure fear.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

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Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world

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Please post your links. I assume you have none.  


Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world

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Can you read?  No, I suppose not.

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 1:23:14 PM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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One has to wonder which link krw imagined that Steve might have read.

John Larkin doesn't post many links on anthropogenic global warming, and pretty much all of them are to denialist web-sites (which feed him the kind of fatuous pap that he finds plausible).

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 11:18:57 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
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bal  
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Do or die - in this context - doesn't involve actually expiring. "Act or fa
il"
is is what is meant.

It the global temperature rises another degree Kelvin - it has already gone
 up by roughly one degree Kelvin - extreme weather events (like particularl
y intense tropical cyclones) will kill even more people than they do at the
 moment, and more intense (and prolonged) droughts and more severe floods w
ill probably kill more.

None of those killed will have elected to die, and none of them will die of
 pure fear, though if your house is in the process of being blown to pieces
 by a tropical cyclone you'll get pretty nervous in your final moments.

John Larkin prefers to ignore this reality, helped by some particularly dec
eitful - if not all that convincing - denialist propaganda pushed out by th
e fossil carbon extraction industry.

It makes him look like a gullible sucker, but he's much too vain to ever le
t himself become conscious of this possibility.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 7:48:55 PM UTC-4, Steve Wilson wrote:
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Oh dear, Steve, I certainly don't have your urgency.  
Sea levels are rising (east coast US) at ~1 foot/ 100 years.
In 100 years we'll all be dead, there will be lots more data,
and faster computers, and I'm not all that worried.
I figure we'll figure it out.

George H.  

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world

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Tipping point. Beyond that,  it's too late.


Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 9:18:28 PM UTC-4, Steve Wilson wrote:
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We'll tip it back if there is some tipping point.  
It's never too late, just more embarrassing.  

But to be clear I've been in favor of some type of  
carbon tax, since John Anderson.  

George H,    

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 18:38:08 -0700 (PDT), George Herold

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Why do you want a tax on prosperity.  Don't you like it?

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 1:24:44 PM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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Why is a carbon tax "a tax on prosperity"?

And what tax isn't? A tax on poverty isn't going to raise enough money to b
e useful.

The argument for a carbon tax is that burning carbon dumps carbon dioxide i
n the atmosphere which costs us all money by changing the environment for t
he worse. Putting at tax on carbon encourages people to get their energy in
 some other way that doesn't damage the environment.

Krw can't follow the argument - he doesn't understand how more carbon dioxi
de in the atmosphere changes and damages the environment - but he doesn't w
ant to pay more taxes on anything, so he knows he doesn't like the argument
, even if he can't understand it.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world

rg:
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 be useful.
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 in the atmosphere which costs us all money by changing the environment for
 the worse. Putting at tax on carbon encourages people to get their energy  
in some other way that doesn't damage the environment.
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and the argument for income tax is that it encourages people to work less?


Re: OT: Greenland is literally cracking apart and flooding the world
On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 09:15:56 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen


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Don't ask Bill questions about work.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


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