OT: Google Self-Driving Car Causes Accident

Google Self-Driving Car Causes Accident...

Seems to me the only "software" change needed is a rule that bus drivers are vile idiots and yield to no one. ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
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Reply to
Jim Thompson
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You would think that Google software engineers would factor in the effect of colliding with a bus or even worse an HGV truck into the risk factors for their tiny autonomous vehicle. Momentum transfer hurts you a lot more than it does the heavier vehicle in the ratio of the masses.

Bus drivers are only mildly psychotic when compared to the unfortunate local van delivery drivers on tight deadlines and low piecework rates.

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Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

it's not the first time a remote control car has been involved in an accident, though, Jim:

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Reply to
Cursitor Doom

Yep. Fortunately I drive a tank ;-) ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

The autonomous car was a Lexus RX450h and it was moving at 2 MPH. Not much momentum to transfer.

If they had autonomous vehicles today, I would buy one, especially if it were a hybrid. An all electric vehicle won't suit my driving very well since I drive > 120 miles trips every week or so. If they get the range over 150 miles for the life of the car, I'd sign up to that possibly.

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Rick
Reply to
rickman

Most of the momentum would be in the more massive bus anyway.

So WTF did it hit anything? The thinking distance for a human at 2mph is

0.6m and the stopping distance 0.06m. The computer should also be at least an order of magnitude better at reaction time than a human.

It could also have done the classic go with the offending vehicle trick since presumably it has perfect situational awareness of adjacent lanes.

Basically it highlights a major system defect if a bus can catch it out like that at such low speed. Bus and truck drivers have a reputation of using the "I'm bigger and heavier than you" manoeuvre. WTF wasn't it in the original programming and what else have they missed out messed up?

The bus was doing 15mph and weighs 10x the mass of the car - although it sounds a bit like it was a glancing incidence collision where the bus moved out into the same lane as the car was already occupying or vice versa. More a scrape than anything else but if the robot car could have stopped in about 0.12m (0.66m tops to match a human) then why did it plough into the side of bus? The answer to this is important!

The software should have been aware from the outset that big heavy vehicles have to be avoided unless you really enjoy life shortening collisions or are into deliberate crash for cash insurance scams.

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Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

Bus was moving 15 MPH, still nothing to get excited about.

Who said the car was at fault or could have prevented the collision? From what I read the "error" the car made was to try to continue using the lane after driving around debris. I am guessing the bus decided to move into the same lane given the car moving so slowly. Not enough details were given to really know exactly what happened or how it could have been avoided.

You mean to veer away from the bus? That may have caused it to go into the next lane which could have been much worse.

My experience is Truckers try this to see if you will flinch, not to just grab the lane. I drive an 18 year old truck and when the try it with me I ignore them. They always back off... Busses are another matter. City busses seem to not give a damn. I don't get as much chance to duel with them, but one day I expect to have an accident with them and we'll see how much my truck is worth totaled.

You are assuming it did plow into the bus rather than the bus hitting the car.

Do you really think they can't handle the programming? This is most likely a case of having to deal with the erroneous actions of others. Until we know more details we can't say the car failed. The car can't protect its occupants from every erroneous action of other drivers. There have been a number of accidents with autonomous cars before. This is just the first one where the car contributed to the cause.

Consider that autonomous cars are currently as safe as human drivers. While the autonomous cars will get safer and safer, human drivers will remain about the same with reductions in injuries and deaths mostly coming from improvements to safety equipment and roads. The real limit to how safe the autonomous cars can be is the driving environment which includes the other drivers which so far have caused all the accidents the autonomous cars have been in.

What will make news is when a autonomous car has a single car accident with no one inside. If a Google car crashes in the woods and there's no one around to hear, does it make a sound? lol

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Rick
Reply to
rickman

New algorithm: Buses never yield >:-} ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

Was it a Yellow, White or Blue bus ?

;D

Cheers

Reply to
Martin Riddle

Around here buses are treacherous... pull away from stop as if there's no one there... so you have to be wary. Union assholes is what I think is the problem. ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

Same in NYC, there is always some pedestrian being snuffed out by a Bus or plow every few months.

Cheers

Reply to
Martin Riddle

Once they get their booty sued enuf, they well abandon that idiot idea.

Andy

Reply to
Andy K

But when the bus *didn't* yield its stopping distance should have been

Reply to
Martin Brown

Perhaps just as well. Since it would have made the same bad call at any other speed. At least no-one was hurt in this incident.

It takes two to tango.

Indeed but at 2mph for heavens sake the maximum damage it should have done would be tiny dint and a scratch on the paintwork at worst.

The unit should have perfect situational awareness and as such know that the lane to its left or the remaining amount of road surface is clear to move into. It is what any advanced driver would have done.

City busses probably don't give way since they would never get out at all if they didn't push their luck a bit. I find it astonishing that Google didn't code this heuristic into the car.

Google have admitted partial fault.

Looks like it to me. They have admitted as much. Why was it dordling along in the middle lane at 4mph anyway?

The car has to make the decision. Some of them are difficult ethical decisions too. Should it protect its own car load of 4 people from risk of a rear impact by running a single pedestrian down for instance?

It wouldn't take much to get autonomous cars safer than US drivers.

Drunk people used to drive through our woods in Belgium to evade police breathalyser checkpoints. The result was often burnt out car mated with tree usually fatal to the driver and the tree. People don't always make sound decisions and neither do computers programmed by people.

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Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

More likely management assholes setting incentive/disincentive schemes that encourage such driving. "Be late arriving for whatever reason and get a black mark that is used to reduce your bonus".

Note: bus drivers prefer to arrive /early/ and sit/chat in the rest area :)

Reply to
Tom Gardner

You are talking beyond your knowledge. I have seen no info on what may have been in the left lane or even full details on what the bus was doing. You can speculate all day long, bottom line is we don't know who was at fault or what could have been done to prevent the accident.

They don't give way because they have a schedule to keep and no one wants to mess with a bus... they do because they can! It is a reflex thing. The bus lurches at you and even if you have the right of way, you give!

Which means what exactly? They said they should not have expected the bus to give way, but we still don't know what the bus was doing. It may be that I would have expected the bus to give way if I were driving. I seriously doubt I would have been driving around sand bags at 2 MPH. I park faster than that!

Going around a pile of sand bags that partially blocked the lane. I've seen human drivers do the same thing. Afraid to drive into the next lane and only enough room to get around the obstacle they craw.

I think we know the answer to that one.

Lol. They are already there and will improve. I look forward to the day when autonomous vehicles are mandated. No more human drivers because of the problems they create. Not sure why you use the US as your target. No one dies in cars where you have lived?

So your level of acceptance is perfection? I'll be happy if we can keep them benevolent. Think "I, Robot".

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Rick
Reply to
rickman

This kind of thing would work if the vehicles were all autonomous and they talked to each other.

Reply to
Tom Del Rosso

That will come.. EXCEPT that all conversations will be via a middleman... aka big brother. And the "conversations" rule will apply to humans as well >:-} ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

I'm not sure they even need to talk to each other. In theory the rules of the road prevent accidents. They only happen when a person makes a mistake... usually. A friend hit a pile of gravel on a high speed ramp and totaled his car. Rather than calling it an "accident" which would have been bad for his insurance, they cops wrote it up as an "incident". I'm not sure what an autonomous vehicle would have done about this. Would it have seen it in time? I guess the car can look over its shoulder and still watch the road ahead better than a person.

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Rick
Reply to
rickman

Den torsdag den 3. marts 2016 kl. 03.17.04 UTC+1 skrev Jim Thompson:

I never got around to taking a US drivers license, but here busses have right of way when exiting a stop in the city

-Lasse

Reply to
Lasse Langwadt Christensen

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