OT: GMRS/FRS vs. CB vs. 2m choices (for emergency use)

Hi,

Wrt my BoB issue (see Battery chemistry best suited for storage abuse), I presently have 5 types of radios in my bag(s):

- AM/FM crank radio

- UHF scanner (29-54/108-174/406-512)

- 2m "mobile" transceiver

- pair of handheld CB's + "mobile" (auto) CB

- pair of small GMRS/FRS handhelds

The first three (the first TWO, definitely!) are receive only units. (I'm not licensed so would only consider keying the 2m rig in a *dire* emergency -- and face the consequences, later). The last two types provide 2way comms.

We (currently) live in a reasonably sparsely populated area (we're in a metro area but metro areas tend to be pretty far apart -- not like New England, for example!) We're also just an hour from Mexico (which can have a variety of implications "in an emergency").

The thinking was that AM/FM radio would be the mechanism of choice for communicating with the unwashed masses. Being able to receive those broadcasts seems like it would be essential.

The UHF scanner gives a (diminishing) ability to tap into what gummit services are saying, behind the scenes.

The 2m rig would similarly let me hear what others in more distant metro areas are saying (including, reaching down to the border).

The FRS/GMRS devices are small and convenient if a party has to split up and remain in contact with each other: "You stay here, I'll go see what's up ahead..."

The same can be said about the CB handhelds. And, in cases where it is possible to bring your car along, the mobile rig lets you keep in contact with truckers (while driving) or, as a "base station" to contact folks using the handheld units.

To me, this all makes (some) sense -- it's hard to imagine what you

*might* need when the fit hits the shan.

I have several different BoB's with different types of kit in each. E.g., the smallest (easiest to "carry out" if forced to walk out of here) has first aid and fire starting gear in it -- I can live without electronic devices if push comes to shove (and have to make the choice between fire/aid vs. "toys").

Now, the question:

How should I rank the utility of each of these different radios, given our geographic situation? E.g., I *think* the AM/FM would be the most valuable -- without it, you can't get a picture of what's happening (at least, not the "official" picture). Having the GMRS units *instead* is far less GENERALLY useful. But, how to prioritize each, given the different sizes and power requirements of each (silly to carry around the 2m rig if I don't have a large enough power source to light it up!)

Reply to
Don Y
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Likelihood of communications success X likelihood of having the device conveniently available. You going to have to make some assumptions about the coverage area and perhaps if you can contact someone when needed.

Reply to
David Eather

Are things that bad in Buffalo?

Cheers

Reply to
Martin Riddle

Why not get your ham license? It is simple to do. There is no Morse code requirement and the questions with answers are available on the internet.

Dan

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Reply to
dcaster

Mobile transceivers in your bug out bag are useless without a power source and antenna. Instead, put it (or them) in your car. If you have the car when you bug out, fine. If not, the mobile radio in your BOB adds useless weight and takes up space better allocated to something else. Finally, don't expect reliable (or perhaps any) long range communication from either CB or 2 meter mobiles. If you feel you must have 2 meter capability, buy a cheap handheld 2 meter transceiver. You already have CB handhelds.

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

Whenever we have a local emergency, the worst information usually comes from the broadcast media. Careful when acting on their information.

Get a ham license. Listening is one thing. Participating and asking for information is quite another: A tech license will suffice. If you know which end of the soldering iron to grab, you should be able to pass the exam.

Also, consider getting involved in one of the various emergency training groups such as ARES, RACES, CERT, etc. Unless you have a good background in procedures, acronyms, and buzzwords, you won't understand what you're hearing on the radio. For example, NIMS (National Incident Management System).

You might also want to grab a copy of the NIFOG (National Interoperability Field Operations Guide) at: which includes quite a bit on frequencies, procedures, operations, technology, and basics. You'll need stuff like this printed BEFORE an emergency as downloading from the internet and printing may not be viable options in an emergency.

Your unspecified model scanner is probably ok. The problem is that if your area has gone narrow band digital, trunked, scrambled or various combinations of these, you won't be able to hear anything useful. Many digital systems are not scrambled and can be decoded by an appropriate scanner or a PC used as a decoder: You can bring the discriminator (undemphasized audio) out from your scanner and use a PC as a decoder.

Your unspecified model 2m radio might be adequate, unless the locals are using 50, 220, or 440 MHz frequencies. Some frequencies are also used for packet radio data communications. You'll need a copy of the local frequency list in order to know where to listen. For example, the local info page:

The pair of CB radios is a great place to store spare batteries. In an emergency, the radios can be used as paperweights or hammers. The antennas also make good barbeque skewers.

GMRS/FRS radios are actually useful for local and family communications. Range is extremely limited, unless you have a GMRS repeater that can be used.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

No desire. I could also get certified as an EMT, etc.

As long as I don't key the 2m transceiver, I haven't broken any laws. It's unlikely that I'm going to come up with any novel question that someone won't already have brought up and discussed over the air.

In the event of a *true* emergency ("We've had a natural gas explosion, here, and need fire and medical services immediately!"), I wouldn't hesitate to broadcast. Would you hestitate to run a red light if driving someone gravely injured to the hospital??

Reply to
Don Y

That;s why I have different BoB's with different types of kit.

If we're driving out (or shelter-in-place), I can drag the bag that has the mobile rigs in it out of the store room and set it up on the living room floor (instead of sitting in the car listening to it!).

If we're walking out, then I leave that bag behind -- none of the things that are in it would be worth the effort of carrying them (any distance).

How is comms via a handheld going to be more reliable than a "mobile" unit?

Reply to
Don Y

The same can be said of information from "unnamed sources" via other broadcast media.

No interest. I don't need to "chat" with people over long distances. I'm sure I'll be able to "overhear" any information that is likely to be of interest.

A close friend is associated with the state's disaster preparedness service. (He was in NOLA counting bodies, etc.) I suspect most of the banter in the early hours of these events is disorganized. Getting a *feel* for the extent of a problem is probably more important than knowing specifics.

I've already experimented with the scanner to get a feel for what schemes are in use, here, currently. Of course, there are comms that happen on more secure channels (as well as over cell phones!). But, I've been able to monitor local "events" in the past.

Given the distance between metro areas, here, I suspect a good bit of "long distance data gathering" will be from folks like truckers as they're the ones that will be making that trip often.

Yup. Their appeal is size. E.g., some 20+ years ago, there was local flooding (to the extent that large chunks of riverbank were swept away). Rather than an entire party wandering around looking for an opportune portage, *one* person could scout ahead and radio back on conditions so any kit doesn't need to be carried, needlessly.

Reply to
Don Y

ode

t.

I assume you have a list of all the ham repeaters in your area and have pro grammed your 2 meter transceiver for all the 2 meter repeaters. But what have you done about frequencies other than 2 meters? I would expert that a lot of the traffic in an emergency would not be on 2 meters. Hand held se ts are generally on higher frequencies . And 2 meters is pretty much line of sight.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

That's the theory. You might want to ask the local ARES/RACES groups what they think of that idea. Or, just interrupt one of the local nets and practice drills. I have idea what might happen.

If you plan to scan all the available services and nets for interesting traffic, you may want to get more than one scanner. It's easy enough to listen to one channel for anything of interest. Listening to everything of interest is more difficult. For example, when we have a storm, I listen to the usual emergency dispatch channels, the local ham channels, and PG&E so that I can guess when the power will be restored.

My office is literally sitting on top of the main natural gas line into the city. After the 2010 explosion in San Bruno, I tend to be rather concerned. I've seen the pipe when PG&E was working on it. It's HUGE.

I'm sure you'll be tolerated if you have a genuine emergency. We'll see how well you do at delivering the necessary information under stress and without practice. I had occasion to test that once, when I witnessed and narrowly avoided becoming part of an automobile accident. I called 911 on my cell phone, and was sufficiently nervous to fumble the location.

Incidentally, even licensed hams are not exactly welcome on emergency nets. I was driving through Santa Barbara while the hills were on fire. Spinning the dial on my VHF mobile, I eventually found the frequency in use by the local AREA group. There was a continuous barrage of random hams "checking in" to the net trying to volunteer. Net control would repeatedly read a short script inviting that ham to their regular meeting and training, so that they could actually do something useful. It went on for hours indicating that most of those trying to volunteer, did not listen to the channel for very long before talking.

If you ask an ambulance or emergency vehicle driver how they drive in the city, I think you'll find that they do run red lights, but at "normal" speeds. Crashing at high speed into an unaware driver is more of a risk than losing the injured victim from driving too slow.

You might want to read something on how emergency services were handled after Hurricane Katrina. Lots of interesting anecdotes, but one that's relevant is how long emergency power systems continued to work. In general, most everything relied on generator power, which relied on the supply of gasoline and diesel. That lasted about 2 weeks after which most systems went dark. Solar charging was possible, but most of the panels were trashed by flying debris.

Just after Katrina, I was listening on HF to an operator at an emergency shelter begging the National Guard to deliver a prepared load of diesel to the shelter. The Guard did not want to risk a night time delivery across the lake. The generator was running on fumes. I'm wondering if either party knew that when a diesel generator runs low on fuel, it sucks the sludge out of the bottom of the tank clogging the filters. If the injectors are starved for fuel, they will need to be re-primed in order to get the generator running again. The shelter dropped off the air in mid sentence and reappeared roughly a week later, after they fixed and fueled the generator. It's these little decisions that make emergencies interesting. Do you really want to drain the tank (or batteries) to zero? Our local repeater has a fairly big pile of batteries, but if I let them go below about

40%(?) of capacity, they'll be ready for the recyclers: We have a generator and charger handy to keep that from happening.

Just about any power scheme can probably last a day or two. With some type of charging scheme, maybe a week or two. After that, you'll need to do some careful planning. As an exercise, I suggest you add up the number of watt-hrs consumed by your various battery operated electronic devices. Then add up the number of watt-hrs that your charging system can deliver. If you consume more than you produce, your power is not going to last very long.

Give the power system a dry run for a few days. That's where I usually find all the dead batteries. For example, I had a few boxes of AA alkaline batteries in the fridge for about 6 years. My guess is that they were all at 25-50% of capacity when tested.

Cell phones and smartphones are another potential problem. If the local cell sites go dark, the phone will search for other available cell sites (roaming). During these searches, the phone periodically transmits at full power in order to be heard. This can drain the cell phone battery rather quickly. When someone cut the underground fiber in the SF Bay area during a CWA union strike, all the local cell sites went down because they could not be monitored or controlled without the fiber backhaul. My cell phone battery went from full charge to totally dead in about 4 hrs.

I assume much of what you're asking is commonly discussed in the various survivalist forums and newsgroups. I don't read the stuff, so I can't recycle any of their wisdom. However, I suggest you at least skim their comments.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Absolutely *nothing*! :> If/when someone gifts me a suitable transceiver (or receiver), I'll address that issue.

[You don't actually think I spent *money* on any of this stuff, do you?? (Well, to be honest, I *did* buy a tube of Bacitracin that I didn't need, at the time I first assembled them. But, I rotate that out as I use up what I have on hand in the medicine chest... so it's not a genuine "BoB expense". The batteries, however, *have* been as I rarely use the scanner and *never* use any of the other radios)]

I don't expect to hear "official" traffic. Rather, just a means of listening to people who are farther away than my neighbors, etc. Likewise, I don't expect "truckers" and chatter on the CB channels to be "official". But, it will tell me more than sticking my head out the window and straining to overhear "something"!

When there is some "event" on the official police/fire bands, I don't get to "participate". But, I get a feel for what is happening before the local broadcast news decides to cover it -- with their typical THREE SENTENCE news story (read the transcripts of YOUR local news broadcasts to see how sparse the coverage is -- of *anything*!)

Reply to
Don Y

If I don't key the unit, they don't even know I *exist*.

To be clear, are you suggesting I *not* avail myself of a potential source of information and, instead, rely *solely* on the pablum that the media spoon feeds the populace??

I'm not looking for specifics. I imagine I will have other things to do besides sit by a scanner(s). I keep a list of the various frequencies used in this part of the country packed in the BoB with the scanner preprogrammed to those that are likely to be of interest. Enable/disable them individually when the time comes based on my impressions of the general location of the "threat".

E.g., when the local substation xformer caught fire, once I *knew* that it was the cause of the outage, I had very little need to know *more* ("This isn't going to be a 15 minute outage!").

Likewise, when I knew that the city/region had insufficient gas supply to address the (freak) cold spell, I knew that trying to relight the furnace would be futile until temperatures warmed up (or, the city shut off the supply to certain neighborhoods to allow enough pressure for the balance of the area). OTOH, I wasn't one of the *thousands* of people who called a plumber complaining that their furnace was broke! :>

I've been surprisingly coherent when *I* was the "emergency". Even remembering subtle -- but important -- details of the event(s) that enabled caregivers to skip certain (unnecessary but prophylactic) steps and engage other steps that wouldn't typically have been necessary.

On the two or three occasions where I've been "spectator" to SWMBO's "events", the level of detail I reported astounded the attending and, later her PCP -- enabling followup care that wouldn't have been considered, at that time (asymptomatic).

So, that's *their* individual problem. Wanting to feel important/useful. I, OTOH, want to be *informed* (which means you *listen*).

Most emergency vehicles "run" lights (here) at a crawl. Hesitant, tentative, etc. Because most vehicular traffic is ignorant, lazy or opportunistic.

We had occasion, yesterday afternoon, to "pull over" to let an ambulance coming up *behind* us, pass. The "punk" in the car in the next lane was oblivious -- ghetto blaster shaking his PoS vehicle. And, obviously unaware (or uncaring) of the flashing strobe atop the traffic signal AHEAD of us indicating that it had detected the strobe from the approaching emergency vehicle and was gating traffic to facilitate its passage.

A neighbor/close friend was there counting bodies. He has many first-hand accounts of his time. He's been helpful in advising as to what the capabilities of the "local officials" WILL be in any future event(s). Many of their plans seem Draconian and downright *ghastly*. Yet, when you *think* about the realities, they are the only realistic outcomes that can be expected!

I suspect the *likely* problems, here, will be:

- pandemic/epidemic

- problem with the local nuke

- "border troubles"

- very localized flooding (in the desert??)

- brushfire (we've had some that were 10,000-200,000 acres recently)

I don't think there have been any recorded tornadoes or hurricanes, here. And, I've only experienced one (incredibly mild) earthquake (pretty distant).

Heh heh heh... having first-hand experience with home heating oil, I can see where this is going...

The goal isn't to survive indefinitely. The goal is to get through the

*typical* (whatever that means) event with minimal discomfort and maximum "composure" -- so you're not running around crying "help me" like the rest of the unwashed masses.

Most folks aren't even aware of the "backup" water supply that they have available in their water heater. Or, naively *spend* it to avoid using *cold* water on their hands, etc.

There are other, more practical, benefits of "being prepared", as well. E.g., in the event of a *personal* incident (burst pipes, fire, etc.) that only affects *us*, we can still leave the house with some bare essentials -- including the names of insurers, bank accounts, credit cards, etc. -- that otherwise might not be accessible if the house is "off limits".

Thankfully, our only *big* loads exist when we *have* more reserve/generation capability. E.g., shelter-in-place or drive-out. In the former case, the refrigerator and freezer would be the only real loads -- and then, mainly to cut out financial losses on stored foodstuffs. I.e., that would only be important if we expected the problem to be short-lived (days-weeks) and could benefit from harvesting those foodstuffs.

We have a small, "portable" solar panel that could easily provide us with ~200WHr on a typical day. The battery that we use for the rainwater harvest system can be used to power one of the small inverters to make this supply "more conveniently" available (without having to deploy it to the "DC devices" that are present in our BoB.)

And, of course, we can use other energy sources for some of our needs (e.g., propane and charcoal for cooking).

If I can hack together a suitable, light weight enclosure for this larger "crank unit", it would also provide "man-power" -- both in-place and portably. (it's hard to do mechanical things without resorting to metalwork -- and the associated weight)

We don't use cell phones (well, SWMBO has one for "emergencies" but we would, instead, rely on the land line for that sort of comms. Or, the (wireless) internet connection -- if our provider is still "up".

Unlike the folks who want to jabber when nervous, I'd much prefer listening and acting -- than gossiping.

I think there are too many "extremists" in those sorts of camps.

We have a large LDS population, here. They are *supposed* to be prepared for these sorts of things (for up to a YEAR, IIRC!) So, you can gently pick the brains of your LDS neighbors and sort through the "religious doctrine" vs. "practical information". Likewise, I still have many of my notes from Scouting regarding what to pack (and NOT pack!) for outings of various durations.

As I said (elsewhere), this isn't a preoccupation nor an investment; rather, just some common-sense FORETHOUGHT to (hopefully) eliminate the need to engage in this sort of decision making when time is NOT available. I'd rather be able to just grab a certain (sub)set of bags based on my imagined needs in an emergency (without having to consider ALL of the individual contents thereof) than to have to sit down and come to a rational decision about those contents while under duress. I think it's too easy to get into the mode of wanting to throw *everything* into a sack "just to be safe". And, ending up with something that is impractical to haul. By doing the thinking at my leisure, I am hoping to not make that mistake!

Reply to
Don Y

I don't think you understand the benefits of obtaining a ham license and talking on the air to other hams. Partial list of benefits:

  1. The license looks cool on the wall and will impress your friends and neighbors. Unfortunately, you'll need to print your own copy as the FCC reduction in services program has eliminated this benefit:
  2. Mentioning that you practice ham radio is good for avoiding jury duty. I've done this twice so far. When the attorney ask "What are your hobbies"? answering with any type of technical hobby labels you as a person who is able to think, and therefore not suitable for the typical impressionable jury.
  3. When stopped by the police for a traffic infraction, one look at the inside of the typical ham radio installation will convince the officer that he does not want to deal with you should the case go to court. For example, if you stopped this in a vehicle, what would you think? What would you do? Probably nothing:
  4. Ham radio puts your non-ham friends and associates in a more favorable light. Most of my friends and associates are rather strange or weird. I assume it's like that for everyone. However, once you meet the local hams, your friends and associates will seem substantially better and far less weird by comparison.
  5. Carrying an HT (handie talkie) around is useful for making friends with the local kids. When they see you with the HT, they will usually approach and ask "Are you a cop"? You can take it from there.
  6. Ham radio helps you meet the neighbors. When you install an antenna on the roof, they will invariably beat a path to your door and ask "Are you affecting my TV reception"? This can go either way, so try to think positive.
  7. Ham radio antennas on a vehicle resemble WWI style contact mines. No sane driver will go anywhere near such a moving antenna farm for fear of detonation or sterilization from RF exposure. It's almost as effective as a ghetto blaster at full volume.
  8. Ham radio is sexy. There's a web site dedicated to this aspect of the hobby:
  9. Ham radio promotes thrifty behavior. I've sold some equipment to various hams and have noticed that after minimal exposure to RF, even the wealthiest ham magically becomes a cheap tightwad. If you're interested in learning the trick of economical tech shopping, ham radio is for you.
  10. Ham radio operation promotes public speaking skills. The FCC requires that hams identify with their call sign every 10 minutes. This has been interpreted that the minimum monologue should be at least 10 minutes long. If you're having problems with public speaking, ham radio will improve your speaking skills.

I hope this inspires you to get a ham license.

Yep.

Just a note. If your friend is a ham operator involved with ARES, what usually happens is that the ARES members initially take care of their families first. Once they're deemed safe and their situation is stabilized, they arrive at the designated emergency centers. RACES requires activation by the federal government, which as you might notice from the above URL, did not quite have it together.

Ok, but you should know something about operating procedures. There are just too many acronyms, buzzwords, tactical call signs, etc to learn during a real disaster. At a minimum, grab the NIFOG guide and print it for reference.

We use them to pass off to non-hams who show up at emergencies wanting to help. We can't give them a real ham radio as that would require a license. However, GMRS/FRS/MURS radios are fine. Biggest problems are dead batteries and battery packs falling out of the radio and getting lost. 2nd biggest is teaching people to talk into the microphone, not try to talk at arms length (too much Star Trek).

If you really want to know what's happening, I suggest you buy a suitable quadcopter drone with a camera, and do your own disaster assessment.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

I've got the (fake) Nobel Diploma suitably framed. Hasn't fooled many folks, though...

I've only been "called", once. And, dismissed long before the individual questioning. I'm told that simply stating I'm an engineer is likely to disqualify me.

OTOH, I've considered examining the docket and wandering down to just

*watch* some proceedings (having never done that)

Yeah, SWMBO is really gonna like lugging THAT around -- NOT!

Actually, most of my friends are reasonably "normal". OTOH, at least *one* of *their* friends isn't! :-/

I suspect I "know" more people in this subdivision (100-200 homes) than any of the other folks, here. Daily walks through it have given me a chance to meet and talk with many of them. Keeping their names straight gets to be a challenge (esp as many are "seasonal" residents).

What's more disturbing is being approached by these "strangers" in other, out-of-context locations (grocery store, doctor's office, etc.) and desperately trying to sort out "where does HE know ME from?"

Can't beat the prices *I've* paid for this stuff (zip).

Ha!

Unlikely. I'd prefer spending the time doing something *interesting*!

He's neither a ham nor has any family (widower). But, he's really "gung ho" about helping in times of need. E.g., one of those who volunteers to go to other parts of the country to sort out messes.

------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As I said upthread, our problem is that we are reasonably isolated (not "out in the boondocks" as we are "in town" and a fairly large metro area. But, rather, metro areas are pretty far apart here (dessert southwest). Unlike back east where a neighbor of a neighbor of a neighbor is probably IMPACTED by an "event", there's just too much "wide open space" to make that chain of proximities applicable.

I'm unlikely to interact with anyone who "works in Feenigs" and might have first-hand information on an "event", there. It's just too long of a commute to be practical! It would be like someone in Hartford (CT) chatting with a neighbor who "works in Boston" about the marathon event (the two localities being separated by ~100 miles -- and, with lots of *other* opportunities for employment *between* them!)

Reply to
Don Y

Nope. I wouldn't wish US network news reporting on my worst enemy.

I'm simply suggesting that a second scanner might be more useful than the VHF ham radio. However, if you plan to keep the ham radio transceiver, it would be fairly easy for you to obtain a ham license which enables you to use it in a legal and acceptable manner. We have a few bootleggers on our local repeaters. The general policy it to encourage them to get a license or that fails, ignore them until they go away.

That was guaranteed when you failed to supply tech specs on your proposed power system and battery requirements.

Very good. That's better than most. I do it acceptably well, but not when I just had a major automobile accident appear in front of me.

No problem. I just wanted to provide an example of how uninvited guests on the frequency are sometimes treated. My example is not universal and will vary radically with the attitude and patience of those involved. Ask your friend in emergency services and see what they think.

Nope. The goal is to take care of your situation and to NOT become a victim. It's difficult to predict the duration of an emergency, but managing your available resources is another goal. In my never humble opinion, handling a few hours, a few days, a few weeks, or months are all handled quite differently. For example, you can get away with using non-rechargeable batteries for a few hours or maybe a few days. Beyond that, you need a rechargeable system. The system lacks capacity because of the lack of charging electricity, sunlight, wind, hydro, etc, then you'll be limited by generator power and fuel. When you get into months, it's 100% fuel limited.

Or wasted it all flushing the toilet. Lots of ways to do it wrong. Yep, water is potentially a big problem. We have a small 4500 gallon water tank for the neighborhood which I helped build 30 years ago. Unfortunately, the current property owner thinks it came with his house and has decided to confiscate it. I'm working on cleaning up the misunderstanding. Meanwhile, I have about 40 gallons behind the house.

Good plan. That might have been a better plan than leaving everything of importance in a bank safe deposit box. After the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake, someone declared the bank building as unsafe and refused to let anyone into the building to recover their stuff from the safe deposit boxes. The servers at a local medical facility were trashed in the quake[1]. The backup tapes were in the safe deposit box. Getting them required a court order.

I did a little better with my office. My cash box, books, and backup tapes were in the office which also was declared unsafe. I bribed the guard to look the other way as I hopped the fence and retrieved my stuff. Other businesses did the same thing. That worked well until some enterprising burglar bribed the guard and started hauling off other people's stuff.

I have my important stuff in a diamond plate reinforced foot locker buried somewhat into the hillside. If I need my papers, I'll come back for them later. The box should survive a forest fire or quake. I don't worry about flooding on top of a mountain.

Powering a fridge or freezer is too much of a load. For long term, I invested in some buckets of survival rations. Every few months, I try a few to deplete anything that might eventually be expired. Same with canned food. I have a very small refrigeration so my losses are minimal.

Why don't you just graft another charger onto the solar system and use it to charge the radio batteries? That's roughly what I do. I have two solar panels (12V @14A max) on the roof. Nearby are some plywood covers in case the wind starts blowing. They charge a mostly assortment of AGM batteries. At this time, they power various radios and a laptop inverter/charger. I'm working on standardizing the 12v power connectors, but currently I'm on the old standard: Old: New: Fused distributions boxes are available:

I suggest you not judge the source and only concern yourself with what they have to offer. I've learned quite a bit about various technical subjects from fanatics, extremists, and those with obvious mental issues.

Good plan. I don't know much about the Mormon Church. I had some Mormon neighbors once that were into storing a years worth of food in the house. It was quite an impressive pile for a family of three. However, when I was invited for dinner to help deplete the nearly expired food, the consensus was that it tasted lousy.

Got it. You're not going to do anything to build a reliable emergency radio and power system, but you will think about it. Great plan.

No problem. Just grab a credit card and all the cash you can find. That's the magic formula for light weight bicycle touring. If you need something, buy it.

Incidentally, you haven't seen my house. Let me assure you that I couldn't take it all with me even if I wanted to do so. It's too big a mess. However, I have a suitcase with a change of clothes and some travel essentials, but that's for business, not disasters.

Good luck.

[1] The UPS (uninterruptible power supply) kept the servers running during the shaking. The result was that the shaking beat the hard disk drives to death. If the UPS had an accelerometer cutoff switch to kill the power during a quake, it would have survived.
--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

We don't worry about "a few hours" -- assuming we're sheltering in place (and often not even aware of any widespread "event"). E.g., the natural gas outage was only something that I noticed because I was up all night and wondered why the house was cooler than normal -- then, noticed the furnace wouldn't *stay* lit (i.e., there's obviously

*some* gas and the furnace knows *how* to ignite... it just can't maintain a flame!)

We have flashlights, etc. around the house so the BoB's aren't even needed in those cases.

OTOH, if I want to listen to emergency services chatter, I have to go fetch the scanner -- from the BoB! (at least I *know* where it will be found as it has no other "home" in the house!)

Longer duration events tend to be naturally self-limiting wrt things like electric power. E.g., once the refrigerator/freezer are emptied, there's no point in keeping them running.

During the day, we have no need of internal light (lots of glass, skylights, etc.). And, who wants to sit in front of a TV for all that time? So, the small PV can provide enough power to run a radio (scanner, etc.) all day and an 8W/13W LED/CFL all night (if you're afraid of the dark).

Canned vegetables *cold* taste no worse than *warm*. Cooked meats (propane, BBQ) are palatable even served at room temperature. I would most miss my (hot) tea (as I drink it all day long).

Exactly. Because people take those things for granted.

One of the groundwater pumping stations is locate two or three blocks from here. There is a large "buffer" tank located there, above ground. Of course, in an emergency, loss of local power would render the pump inoperative (I suspect there is a manual drain that could be exploited). The bigger concern would be that loss of system pressure would cause a fair bit of "surface water" and "irrigation water" to be draawn *back* into the system from the many homes that don't have anti-siphon devices installed on their irrigation systems!

During Monsoon, we typically have 500-1000G on hand -- but it wouldn't be potable (OTOH, it could solve your washing/sanitary needs and could be boiled for human consumption).

First effort would be to fill the bathtub and sinks to try to harvest as much as the system could offer before it failed completely.

But, for lengthy events, water would be the limiting factor as it doesn't rain here outside of a few winter rains and Monsoon.

Thumb drives are easy to slip into a pocket. OTOH, they rely on finding a computer that can later *read* them! I.e., come The End of Days, this may be problematic! (but, I suspect that will be of little concern :> )

We keep a fair amount of cash, handy. Of course, in a true emergency, cash may be as useless as gold bullion! ("I can't eat/drink gold!") But, either would probably be more useful than a credit card or an IOU!

We have copies here and in bank safe deposit. The thinking being that

*one* set will eventually be accessible.

Easily done with a genset. Running a genset just to power a *radio* or a *light* is overkill.

We have a fair bit "stored" in the freezer. Some we wouldn't "miss" if we lost it (e.g., we keep "grinder rolls" in there as we don't consume them fast enough to leave them "out"). And, no one would miss losing some ice cream, etc. But, losing the protein sources (meat) would probably be unwise: cook it all before it can go bad.

And leave the radios *out* of the BoB? Then, hope to remember to stuff them back into the bag before leaving?

Again, shelter-in-place and drive-out are the easy scenarios to address. Having things "ready to go" is 90% of the problem. Ditto having things easily located (for s-in-p).

The bigger concern is being able to grab what you (have previously decided) need without having to do last minute prep, decision making, etc.

The problem is they tend to think in more "apocalyptic" terms. And, so their recommendations tend to be more aggressive. Note that I don't *expect* to need any of these things -- just don't want to be caught "unprepared" (in the event they *are* needed).

Should I rig a vehicle to run on methane?? Stock supplies for a small operating theater? Build inventories of foodstuffs to last months?? Dig a shelter?

Without getting into the religious aspects, I think the idea is "lousy" is much preferred to "starving". OTOH, I can't bring myself to storing legumes as insurance against that!

How have I *not* done "anything to build a reliable emergency radio and power system"? I have several sources of energy (not all energy needs are electrical). They are currently "on-line" (e.g., the solar charger for the rainwater collector; the rechargeable batteries in the radios; etc.) or "brought on-line" periodically (the genset; the crank radio, flashlight, etc.). How many folks bought crank flashlights without realizing that they NEED to be charged (cranked) periodically lest the BATTERY within, dies? (ever try using a crank light or shake light with a dead battery?)

OTOH, I don't plan on shelling out lots of money and time for something that I expect NOT to need/use.

That doesn't always work. Notice how hard it is for folks to purchase gensets just before a hurricane strikes (or, just after!). You can't always get what you want, when you want it.

I have an exercise that I started doing many years ago: "The house is on fire. What *one* item would you RUN BACK IN TO RETRIEVE?" I.e., you will encounter some personal risk to do so.

The "answer" for many years was "the dogs" (assuming SWMBO could find her own way out). As they've left, the answer now is "nothing".

*Everything* can be replaced. Or, ignored.
Reply to
Don Y

Where did I say a handheld would provide more reliable communications than a mobile?

But, since you bring reliability up, setting up in the living room presents two possibilities for ruining the mobile radio that don't exist with the handheld. Do you know what they are?

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

Perhaps your choice of throwing two unrelated? sentences in the same P? "...don't expect RELIABLE (or perhaps ANY) long range communication from either CB or 2 meter mobiles. If you feel you must have 2 meter capability, buy a cheap HANDHELD 2 meter transceiver. You already have CB HANDHELD."

(emphasis mine)

Did you intend these to be two different, independant statements? If so, my apologies for misunderstanding

Haven't a clue and don't really care! When my neighbor gave me the rig, we carried the tower over, found a suitable place to install it, trimmed the coax to an appropriate length, verified suitable SWR, etc. -- then set all the *pieces* in various places where I could *later* reassemble them when/if the need arose. The same is true of the antenna/coax for the car installation.

I, for example, have no idea if the transceiver even *works* now, after sitting in storage (he keyed it when we were setting up things, here, so I saw it working *then*. But, *I* can't just drag out the "battery eliminator", power it up and check to see if it *still* works! At least, not *legally*! If it *doesn't* work... ... "Too bad, so sad". It hasn't *cost* me anything -- other than a lost capability that I wouldn't have had prior to being gifted the rig!

In a similar vein, if the genset bites the shed just before (or during!) some "event", what (beyond simple repairs) can I do to get it back on line? Should I stock a variety of spare parts "just in case"?

If we are driving out and I blow a radiator hose, should I keep spares on hand?

If we have to walk out, should I keep antivenin on hand in case we stumble onto a rattlesnake den? (we encounter them often in the neighborhood, while hiking, etc.) Should I keep antivenin on hand for black widow bites? (we find one in the *yard* every month or so) Likewise, some heavy duty narcotics for the accompanying pain? (We'll ignore scorpion stings and figure most folks can just "deal with" those)

There's a difference between *obsessing* over these things (like the extremists) and "doing the easy things".

As I said, the goal is to NOT need any of it so it just boils down to some storage space and some forethought! A bargain at any price!

Reply to
Don Y

Okay, if you don't care there's no point in discussing it. Do whatever you want.

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

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