OT: Explain decorum and etiquette

Etiquette are the rules for proper expected behavior as inscribed in a book. Decorum is how they are interpreted plus some unwritten rules. For most workplace situations, they're interchangeable. If you search for "business etiquette", you'll find plenty of books on general practices and specifics for various countries and regions. They're like a translation dictionary. It can help you learn the language, but can't help you act like a local.

When my parents and I arrived in the USA in 1953, we were seriously worried that our European mannerisms and behavior would identify us a communists and subject us to possible deportation by Joe McCarthy and his committee. It was therefore important that we look and act like genuine Americans. In public, we spoke only English, and alternately juggled the knife and fork while eating. To assist in the process, my parents purchased a book on formal dinner etiquette by Emily Post. We emulated the dinner style at home in the book on the assumption that this was the way Americans normally lived and ate. It was a big surprise when we discovered this was not the case. This should illustrate the dangers of practicing etiquette by the book.

There are also rules if etiquette which are not usually inscribed. In

1975, we were in Japan for a business meeting. After several hours of polite discussion about everything except the purpose of the meeting, we were getting nowhere. The Japanese managers were intentionally avoiding any topics related to the meeting purpose. We were getting nowhere, so they invited us to a bar to "relax". Once everyone was thoroughly inebriated, the purpose of the meeting was discussed and rather rapidly settled to everyones satisfaction. Do they need to be drunk in order to make a business decision? Apparently yes, if they want to have a face saving exit strategy should something go wrong. Being drunk when making a decision is deemed an acceptable excuse for faulty judgment. This should illustrate the danger in not knowing how the unwritten rules of etiquette are actually played.

Understanding your foreign colleagues can be a problem. During interviews, I could not get any of the Japanese engineers to describe what they had accomplished. They were afraid that describing their work, without reference to the team, would in some way be disrespectful to the rest of the team. Fear of admitting failure can be a problem. I worked with some Chinese engineers who were very secretive and allowed no one to see their work. I could sense that they were having a problem, but they refused my offers of assistance. Near the end, it was obvious that they were stuck, but would pretend that everything was fine. It was then that management asked for a demonstration and the problems were revealed. They left, never admitting that they had failed, and I inherited the task of trying to patch things together. I suspect design reviews have become more popular because of problems like this. Other engineers would simply stop working when they ran into a problem because admitting that there was a problem was not acceptable. Another group specialized in extorting as much money as possible by withholding key parts of a design until the money was paid. Knowing your colleagues motivations is critical.

My guess(tm) is that you've been selected to accompany a VIP on some international business travel and are being asked simultaneously understand multiple cultures at the same time, so as not be an embarrassment to the VIP. Your question is a rather messy affair, full of comma splices, and far longer than necessary. That tells me that you are uncertain about what to ask for, what is about to happen, and what is expected of you. I suggest you speak with whomever you are replacing, and pump them for as much detail as you can digest.

Whatever you do, do NOT assume that what you see in foreign movies is typical behavior. At best, movie etiquette is distorted. At worst, it is pure fiction. When my family bought our first TV, we assumed that proper middle class behavior was exemplified by the "Ozzie and Harriet" TV show. I never could deduce how Ozzie provided an income since he never seemed to be working at a job.

Also, do NOT assume that everyone shares your values and ethics. For example: What is the difference between a bribe and a commission? The answer is simple. They're the same except a bribe is paid in advance while a commission is paid after. In western culture, a bribe is considered really bad business practices. However, in many cultures, middlemen do not want to risk their profits on one party paying a commission. So, they insist on a getting their profits in advance, also known as a bribe. (Think about that when you obtain a bank loan, and the bank asks for their "points" in advance).

Anyway, when it comes down to you properly performing as a "personal assistant", knowing how to act in accordance with the rules of etiquette and decorum will be marginally useful. They're good for when you need help making a decision. For example, an engineering code of ethics: More important will be knowing why people act that way, what motivates them to act that way, and what they expect from you. You may want to hire some local help to help you past the initial shock.

Good luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann
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Well, I'm sure they're not going to go hungry.

IMO if someone isn't good in that realm then they should work to improve it. AFAIK there's no law written anywhere that says it's impossible.

There are enough good reasons not to that, kinda like dating your co-workers, you'll almost never go wrong with a blanket "just don't" policy

Reply to
bitrex

We always ate salad after the main course because that's what they did in Italy. But of course no one would have taken us for communists.

I've heard that a Japanese man can make a pass at a woman and then say, "Sorry, I was drunk.", and it's a perfectly good excuse.

Reply to
Tom Del Rosso

Being "aggressively American" in negotiating (or relationships even) IMO has little to do with actual aggression or abusive behavior. You can perfectly well be polite and conform to any local standards of etiquette you need to.

It's about "setting the frame" of the interaction. You have a plan for how you want things to be, and you directly or indirectly indicate to your counterparty what that plan is, and what your expectations are. And that you like it when things go according to plan.

You're willing to adjust some of the particulars of the plan to accommodate the other person's needs. But your plan is what it is. Too much deviation and you walk, no hard feelings.

In or out, it's all good either way, but "in" is a smart move.

Reply to
bitrex

Is that a crime in Japan? Wow, no wonder the birthrates are so low.

Reply to
bitrex

[snip]

Likewise in France, salad after the main course. What caught me by surprise was very thin/delicate potato chips as an appetizer. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions. 

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that 
is the secret of happiness."  -James Barrie
Reply to
Jim Thompson

I didn't want to go into too much detail, but I should mention that the Japanese managers spend the wasted initial hours on small talk trying to establish if we were honest, committed to making things work, and reliable. It may have been small talk, but they wanted to know how we think. Did we come to snap decisions? Did we consider the effects of our actions on others. Were we polite and respectful at all time. Once that was established, they were ready to negotiate.

Unfortunately, we probably did not pass the test and they were not quite certain that we were worthy of being a partner in a mutually beneficial relationship. So, they needed an easy way out should things go awry. So, they used the drunk decision making exit.

In is the right way, but also the most difficult to understand. I walked into that one cold turkey, with no preparation beyond some fast library reading and talking to Japanese friends. I didn't know what was happening even after it hit me over the head. A minor example was that in Japan, you are expected to exchange business cards and continue glancing at their cards during the discussion as a sign of respect. Shoving the card in my pocket was not a good move. I didn't know that I had made a mistake until weeks later.

Incidentally, knowing the rituals became useful a few years later when a contingent of Japanese visitors arrived in Santa Cruz to visit a big software company. Just one problem... they arrived on Sunday and everything was closed. They somehow gravitated to the downtown mall, found the local computer store, and politely asked how to visit SCO (Santa Cruz Operations). Why me? I did the bowing and business card exchange ritual, intentionally ignored the obvious older leader of the contingent, and dealt only with the various assistants. SCO was closed on Sunday, but I had the home phone numbers of some of their people. A few phone calls later, the Japanese visitors were on their way to SCO.

The Japanese are no better at guessing their way through American etiquette. We had a group of visitors from out Japanese partner at the factory. Of course, they were given a tour of the facilities. At the time, I was stuck with a deadline that required 11 hrs work, 5 days per week. I would fade out rapidly at the end of the day, unless I slept for 30 to 60 min after lunch. I would crawl under my steel desk and cover my head, leaving only my legs sticking out from under the desk. Of course, this was when the Japanese visitors walked past my office. I'm told they looked inside, took some notes, but said nothing. Later in the week, the chief engineer was seeing them off at the airport when they mentioned something about working his engineers too hard. Something about an engineer passed out from exhaustion under a desk. The misunderstanding was quickly rectified, but I was later lectured on my sleeping habits by literally everyone in management.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Of course. Since the time of Horace. "Dulce et decorum etiquette pro patria mori"

"It is sweet and well-mannered to die for one's country" ITYF.

Reply to
Cursitor Doom

"Looking for love? Try the office! Relationships that begin in the workplace most likely to result in marriage"

Other: One-third of couples met in places where no other couples met. School and work are the next-most common meeting locations (15-20%). Parties and bars are good for short-term (less than one month) sexual relationships (17-25%) and not bad for marriages (8-10%). Churches are good for meeting marriage partners (11%), and poor for meeting short-term sex partners (1%). Personal ads and singles cruises are poor places to meet anyone. Less than 1% of married couples met via a personal ad or on vacation.

From personal experience, I can assure you that things can go wrong under a blanket.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Doesn't sound that much different than a "get to know you" first date where you try to suss out whether your interlocutor is a regular person or an axe-murderer. A few drinks makes a perfectly plausibly-deniable excuse for ejecting out early if things go belly-up. "Sorry, gotta be up early in the morning." Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

My girlfriend is more of an introvert than I am and sometimes has more trouble "getting" social nuances than I do. Reality is that not everyone is going to "go direct" and tell you exactly what they want, what their expectations are, what they're looking for straight-up, and playing one's cards close can often be a pretty good policy. But this can be a hard situation for people less attuned to body language, subtext, and nuance.

Reason being is that people often have a knack for telling you the things you want to hear if they know ahead of time what they are. But before you jump into bed with someone (literally or figuratively) you want to have a little intel on what they're about, what they think about things, and what their true motivations are. So sometimes people will say one thing while what they mean is quite another. They're looking for someone who "gets it."

"The play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king"

Reply to
bitrex

Yep, lots of people do all sorts of things that aren't good ideas when it comes to romantic relationships!

Reply to
bitrex

Here you go, Jeff:

formatting link

;->

Reply to
Cursitor Doom

This is interesting:

"In the 1930s, most couples lived within ten blocks of each other when they met."

The same point is made in The Bell Curve. People used to mate near home pre-WWII when 2% of the population went to college. Coed colleges created an aggregation of smart people who mated and distorted the tails of the IQ distribution. And maybe spiked the autism stats. And certainly contributed to income inequality.

Texas Instruments wasted a great deal of money on the failed ASC (Advanced Scientific Computer) program, but it did discover an excellent technique for shooting admins in the butt with rubber bands. It has to do with spin stabilization. Several marriages resulted.

I met both of my wives through ads.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

US income inequality doesn't have anything to do there being more clever pe ople around.

Wealth in the US is more heritable than height (which is more heritable tha n IQ) and US wealth inequality has a lot more to do with making people (or their parents) pay for their own education. Places like Scandinavia and Ger many which pay for everybody's education out of taxes have a lot more inter

-generation social mobility, and a lot less income inequality.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

Wow, do they know about each other?

Reply to
bitrex

They have met.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

I understand that the definition of "diplomacy" is the art of telling someone explicitly to go hell in such a way that they look forward for the trip.

Reply to
Robert Baer

Decorum is a fancy rum bottle filled with colored water that's used for a bookend. Etiquette is a small Etique. A etique that's not bad enough to take an aspirin for.

Reply to
Wanderer

Bwahahahahahaha! Good one! ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions. 

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that 
is the secret of happiness."  -James Barrie
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Reply to
Cursitor Doom

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