OT: China Cuts E-vehicle Subsidies

ote:

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I have a

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t for just

en large

gth of time.

lly charged EV you can get safely away easily. People just like to spread FUD about things they don't understand.

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ular

able to

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certain

ing near zero charge. It's around 3 to 4 miles per hour of charging depend ing on the model of car. Model 3s are more like 4 miles per hour. So an o vernight gives you around 50 miles.

t a full charge overnight, just like a level 2 charger at a hotel or other facility.

o be prepared just like in an ICE. Once the gas stations run out of fuel a gas car isn't going anywhere either. In many situations it will be easier to get electricity than gas.

he car

to

have

a prone to evacuations.

I'm sorry if the math confuses you so. I may have posted those numbers, bu t you need to be able to comprehend the context if you want to apply math.

ear zero charge."

Yes, and what was the context? Try actually reading what people write rath er than what you want to see.

There's the problem. You keep assuming the car isn't charged. That's a hu ge difference between an ICE and an EV. The ICE is reliant on being driven to a fueling station to get fuel. An EV can be charged nearly anywhere. When I have a wife, I will keep my EV plugged in at all hours of the day an d night and will never be short on fuel. As it is, I am away from home and still keep more than enough fuel in the car to reach any hospital in the a re. At home I keep enough fuel in the tank to reach chargers and hospitals .

Not correct for the reasons I've given several times in this thread.

--

  Rick C. 

  --++ Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
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On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 12:29:35 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrot e:

:

ote:

t isn't anywhere near a normal traffic load. The traffic is bumper to bumpe r, toll roads are turned off, and even the southbound lanes of I-75 are use d for Northbound traffic. You are clueless as to the conditions involved. A dd to the other problems, but South Florida is full of liberal idiots who d on't make any preparations for emergencies. They are like the people who di ed during Katrina, trapped in their attics because the refused to leave unt il it was too late.

severe

ll into Georgia before he needed to charge again and there are many opportu nities for that along the way. There are lots of places to charge while yo u stop for a meal.

at

ou

ast

ning

uch charge it has? With a gas car, in every one of these situations I've kn own about or experienced, when there was plenty of warning you fill the car

re

p situations that are worst case for many things. Whatever.

han fine. Now that I am driving a good car

This EV is the first good car you've ever had? Or by good do you mean one that you believe it's good for the environment?

and stop every three or so hours, I am much more rested and comfortable wh en I get to where I'm going.

Well, that's swell if that's what you like. BTW, I can do that with a gas engine car too, I have the choice, I'm not forced to change my life for a car.

Sitting in the same seat for eight hours with few and short breaks is no w ay to drive long distances.

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into

for

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ips.

Well, that's just swell. Stop on the way home to charge. How many hours does that add to the trip?

I like to pull into my driveway with at least 200 miles on the range. Tha t's why I don't often need to charge my car for three days after reaching h ome.

So you don't have it fully charged when it's home, yet another limitation.

Maybe not. I can get to an unexpected spot 200, 300, 400, 500 miles just driving straight. I can be there in 3 to 8 hours. You could get there fine in a couple days, but maybe your mother is dead by then or the house is flooded.

and if it were a bit over 200 miles I would stop and get a 10 minute charg e to make sure I reach my destination, not unlike stopping for gas.

It's a lot different than gas. With a ten minute stop, I get 400 miles, which is more than you ever have. How many more miles do you get with your 10 min stop?

erstand what "ignorant" means, right? It means you don't know something. You don't know much about EVs.

I know that all that I posted is true. And I know that dealing with your EV nuts is near impossible, because it's not about the facts, it's about how wonderful your toy is. And BTW, we haven't even touched on the economics. If the rest of the taxpayers were not heavily subsidizing EVs, most of them would never be sold, because they can't compete.

Berra, Rush "really didn?t say everything I said." Next time don' t get so worked up and listen.

Here is the transcript for you, exactly as I remembered it:

It was Rush on a Tuesday, about 5 days before the Cat 5 hurricane had a forecast track showing it hitting FL and people were taking steps to prepare.

irma-panic/

I?m constantly on guard against it. I?ve lived here since 1

997, and I have developed a system that I trust, my own analysis of the dat a. And I?m not a meteorologist. I?m not gonna tell you what mine is because I don?t want to be misinterpreted as giving you a forecast. Well, I?m tempted to, though, because I?ve been e xactly right since last Friday. I am tempted to tell you. ?Cause I had people asking me back then. I?m tempted to tell you. But my bet ter judgment says don?t go there.

(So, Rush claims he has his own, better system of predicting where hurrican es will hit. How pompous and stupid is that?)

My prediction of where it was gonna go was not shown on but two or three ou tlying models. The point is, we still don?t know where it?s gonna go. The Sunday impact in south Florida is to be Sunday, so that? ??s six days, five days. They still can?t tell us. And not that they should be able to. I mean, these things, there?s too many var iables, atmospheric conditions, sea surface temperatures, and unknown. Ther e?s just no way to predict where these storms are gonna go until pr obably the day before. (interruption) What do you mean, we?re sitti ng ducks? What, are you in Key West? You?re not a sitting deck unle ss you?re in Key West. What do you mean? Why are you a sitting duck ? What are you talking about?

(That's more BS, the target area probabilities continually narrow and you don't need to know exactly where it's going to hit to know that the area where you are is likely to be severely affected. The rant about Key West, apparently he's suggesting only KW is a "sitting duck", so I guess the rest of FL is OK)

My point, you?re not a sitting duck. You could be a sitting duck to night or tomorrow depending on what they do with the track. This is another thing. At the current speed, we know the day is Sunday. Saturday night, Su nday morning, we know that. Unless something happens to slow it down like h appened with Harvey. Once it came to shore, it stopped and that?s w hy Houston flooded. And nobody predicted it. Well, they did predict it was gonna stop. The models did predict that once it came ashore it was gonna st op for a while. They knew that. But they didn?t know this a week in advance. They knew it days in advance.

(Well, yeah, nobody knows FOR SURE, until it hits. But his listeners don't have a G4 waiting and probably many don't have other things they think they might need. Most don't have Rush's generator either)

Another thing I?ve found, folks, these storms, once they actually h it, are never as strong as they?re reported.

(That's quite amazing and irresponsible, New Orleans is a good example. Oh and what did hypocrite Rush say about that one? Did he say, well what can you do, the hurricane forecasts are all wrong, they are politically biased? No, he blamed Ray NAgin for not taking proper steps based on the forecasts, the major one being that he should have evacuated NO earlier, not at the last minute)

RUSH: To wrap up the hurricane business, folks, is simply that I wish that not everything that involved news had become corrupted and politicized, but it just has. And I?m just sharing all this with you ?cause this is the way I look at this stuff now, and I see people being led to pa nic. I see people being led to hoarding. I see all of this being, if not cr eated, encouraged. And it?s extremely frustrating. Time will tell, as it always does, on these storms. And where it goes and how much damage i t causes and what its eventual strength actually is.

(Why is it so frustrating for Rush? Why does it bother him at all? Isn't this simply free market capitalism? He claims there is some unholy alliance or conspiracy between global warming scientists, hurricane forecaster, the media?)

They?re reacting to what they?re seeing. And I?m ju st telling you that there?s a vested interest on the part of a lot of people. Folks, the hurricane doesn?t even need to strike land. T he hurricane doesn?t even need to hit in order to for the agenda to be advanced. All they have to do is create the panic and then show you tha t graphic of this giant red blob that, ?Oh, my God, is gonna eat th e country, you see this thing, is horrible, Mabel, look at how big? ? And they create the fear and panic after they?ve already told everybody climate change is responsible for these bigger and more freq uent storms.

(And what happened in NO?) Obviously there wasn't panic or anything approa ching it, Ray Nagin and the rest took Rush's approach of "can't be that bad, let' s wait and see). Unfortunately the poor blacks in NO didn't have a G4.

Look, the program has to go on. I can sit here and say, ?You know w hat, I?m gonna stay, I?m gonna ride this out.? And I would if it weren?t for the fact that we?re gonna lose el ectricity. If we lose electricity, then there?s no way we can get t he show done outta here. What are you laughing at in there? You think I? ??m making this up? I?m just telling you that we have a generat or, but I don?t want to give away how it?s fueled. That? ??s a security breach.

(And here he encourages just staying, because the worst that's going to happen is you lose electricity. What Rush didn't tell people was that he had his G4 all fueled up and ready to leave on short notice. How many of his listeners had that luxury?

ote:

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it isn't anywhere near a normal traffic load. The traffic is bumper to bum per, toll roads are turned off, and even the southbound lanes of I-75 are u sed for Northbound traffic. You are clueless as to the conditions involved. Add to the other problems, but South Florida is full of liberal idiots who don't make any preparations for emergencies. They are like the people who died during Katrina, trapped in their attics because the refused to leave u ntil it was too late.

a severe

well into Georgia before he needed to charge again and there are many oppor tunities for that along the way. There are lots of places to charge while you stop for a meal.

eat

you

fast

anning

es

ir

much charge it has? With a gas car, in every one of these situations I've known about or experienced, when there was plenty of warning you fill the c ar

fore

up situations that are worst case for many things. Whatever.

than fine. Now that I am driving a good car

when I get to where I'm going.

s

way to drive long distances.

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expected

ody has

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V for

troke

an

trips.

hat's why I don't often need to charge my car for three days after reaching home.

.

rge to make sure I reach my destination, not unlike stopping for gas.

nderstand what "ignorant" means, right? It means you don't know something. You don't know much about EVs.

gi Berra, Rush "really didn?t say everything I said." Next time do n't get so worked up and listen.

e-irma-panic/

1997, and I have developed a system that I trust, my own analysis of the d ata. And I?m not a meteorologist. I?m not gonna tell you wh at mine is because I don?t want to be misinterpreted as giving you a forecast. Well, I?m tempted to, though, because I?ve been exactly right since last Friday. I am tempted to tell you. ?Cause I had people asking me back then. I?m tempted to tell you. But my b etter judgment says don?t go there.

anes

outlying models. The point is, we still don?t know where it? ?s gonna go. The Sunday impact in south Florida is to be Sunday, so that ?s six days, five days. They still can?t tell us. And not t hat they should be able to. I mean, these things, there?s too many variables, atmospheric conditions, sea surface temperatures, and unknown. T here?s just no way to predict where these storms are gonna go until probably the day before. (interruption) What do you mean, we?re si tting ducks? What, are you in Key West? You?re not a sitting deck u nless you?re in Key West. What do you mean? Why are you a sitting d uck? What are you talking about?

tonight or tomorrow depending on what they do with the track. This is anoth er thing. At the current speed, we know the day is Sunday. Saturday night, Sunday morning, we know that. Unless something happens to slow it down like happened with Harvey. Once it came to shore, it stopped and that?s why Houston flooded. And nobody predicted it. Well, they did predict it wa s gonna stop. The models did predict that once it came ashore it was gonna stop for a while. They knew that. But they didn?t know this a week in advance. They knew it days in advance.

hit, are never as strong as they?re reported.

t not everything that involved news had become corrupted and politicized, b ut it just has. And I?m just sharing all this with you ?cau se this is the way I look at this stuff now, and I see people being led to panic. I see people being led to hoarding. I see all of this being, if not created, encouraged. And it?s extremely frustrating. Time will tell , as it always does, on these storms. And where it goes and how much damage it causes and what its eventual strength actually is.

just telling you that there?s a vested interest on the part of a lo t of people. Folks, the hurricane doesn?t even need to strike land. The hurricane doesn?t even need to hit in order to for the agenda to be advanced. All they have to do is create the panic and then show you t hat graphic of this giant red blob that, ?Oh, my God, is gonna eat the country, you see this thing, is horrible, Mabel, look at how big? ?? And they create the fear and panic after they?ve alrea dy told everybody climate change is responsible for these bigger and more f requent storms.

oaching

t's

what, I?m gonna stay, I?m gonna ride this out.? An d I would if it weren?t for the fact that we?re gonna lose electricity. If we lose electricity, then there?s no way we can get the show done outta here. What are you laughing at in there? You think I ?m making this up? I?m just telling you that we have a gene rator, but I don?t want to give away how it?s fueled. That ?s a security breach.

dy

Dude, you are so far out on the limb away from reality I'm not going to con tinue this conversation. It is pointless. You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light while ignoring the scenarios where an EV wi ll perform better than an ICE without acknowledging all these scenarios are very, very unlikely and require someone to be very ignorant of their situa tion.

Your analysis of Rush's transcript shows all his BS, but it never shows the smoking gun of Rush telling people they are "fools" for evacuating. Then you conflate the Florida hurricane with Katrina for no apparent reason.

There is zero point in trying to have a rational discussion with you. OK?

--

  Rick C. 

  -+-- Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
  -+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote :

:

rote:

s, I have a

unusually

out for just

even large

ength of time.

fully charged EV you can get safely away easily. People just like to sprea d FUD about things they don't understand.

e grid

vel 1"

egular

e able to

l 3 to

a certain

rting near zero charge. It's around 3 to 4 miles per hour of charging depe nding on the model of car. Model 3s are more like 4 miles per hour. So an overnight gives you around 50 miles.

get a full charge overnight, just like a level 2 charger at a hotel or othe r facility.

to be prepared just like in an ICE. Once the gas stations run out of fuel a gas car isn't going anywhere either. In many situations it will be easi er to get electricity than gas.

the car

into

ou have

rea prone to evacuations.

but you need to be able to comprehend the context if you want to apply math .

near zero charge."

ther than what you want to see.

How about you try addressing the actual numbers and issue, instead of more vague redirection BS? Those were YOUR numbers, that you posted, for charging an EV, not mine. Did you not post that? That it takes

60 to 70 hours to charge from near zero, using 120V, 12A? What "math" is involved?

ve

Yes, silly me. I want to be prepared for scenarios where I might have an unexpected, urgent need to go somewhere, so I assume that an EV might not be charged and consider what happens then. And how unreasonable is that? You drive somewhere that results in the battery being low. You get a call for some important need to drive 200 miles, be it a medical emergency, something to do with work, etc. With a gas car, I'm good to go. You're screwed. But heh, I'm silly for considering that.

being driven to a fueling station to get fuel.

It's also nearly impossible to run out of fuel, unless you're an idiot. And gas stations are pretty much everywhere. But thanks for bringing up another good point. And an EV is reliant on getting to a place to plug it in. So, if you run an EV out in the middle of nowhere along a road, then what? With a gas car, you can hitch a ride or walk to a gas station, get a can of gas. Or you can call for road service and they bring a can of gas. You're on your way. And back at the gas station, bingo, ten minutes you have 400 mile range. What do they do with an EV? Call a tow truck and get towed somewhere to plug in, I presume. That must be an interesting calculation. Let's see, do we try farmer John's maybe he'll let me put the car there to charge, he's 2 miles away. Or do we go to a gas station and plug in there? Or how much does the tow cost to a real charging station, wherever in bumfuck that might be, if one even exists.

Not quickly, it can't. In ten minutes at a gas station, I have a

400 mile range. What's your range after ten minutes in a 15A outlet? Backing out from your stated data, not very much.

and night and will never be short on fuel.

I'm sure she'll appreciate being given that chore.

Sure, at home, while taking all the necessary steps to keep it full. Even then, it's not true. You get back from a long drive, the car is low. Now an unexpected event happens and you need to go on another long drive, immediately. You're hosed. With my car, I could have two gallons left, drive to a gas station, and ten minutes later I have a 400 mile range.

e.

Of course it's all absolutely correct and I just went through it again for you. You're just so emotionally attached to your dream car, for whatever reason, that you can't acknowledged the very obvious limitations.

I'm so disappointed. I was looking forward to you explaing this that you posted and how I misquoted it when I said if you have an EV that's about out, it can take 3 days to charge it.

"About right. 120 volts, 12 amps and more like 60-70 hours if starting near zero charge."

Winfield posted this:

"My Prius Prime: 5 to 5.5 miles per hour of 12A charge"

That wrong too?

You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities? I don't want a car where if it's been used to the end of it's charge range and I have an unexpected need to go somewhere, I'm SCREWED. And it's not like this is some 5 sigma event, it happens to people. I thought engineers and the like were in this group? Do we design for just sunny days? Or do we design for worst case? With a range of only a couple hundred miles, it's not at all unexpected that there will be times when that car is mostly discharged. Go on a long trip somewhere to someplace rural, battery is near empty. Now what? Oh yeah, charge it at the vacation rental you're using and per your post:

"About right. 120 volts, 12 amps and more like 60-70 hours if starting near zero charge."

Seems to me you have a window of being unable to take an emergency drive back home. And I don't see that as unrealistic at all.

while ignoring the scenarios where an EV will perform better than an ICE without acknowledging all these scenarios are very, very unlikely and require >someone to be very ignorant of their situation.

About the only scenario where I see EVs performing better is maybe 0-60 acceleration in the hot models. Cost wise, at best, it's a wash. Higher upfront cost offset by cheaper fuel. And it's only a wash because EVs are heavily subsidized.

He didn't flat out say it, but he sure implied it.

Then you conflate the Florida hurricane with Katrina for no apparent reason.

Wooosh! I clearly explained the point. Rush in his broadcast under discussion here was dismissing forecasts as being overblown because the forecasters are trying to sell global warming, inaccurate, that they can't tell you where it will hit until 24 hours before, that the media always makes it sound worse than it is. He also said he would STAY where he was, if it were not for that he might lose electric that he needs for his broadcast, etc. Yet after Katrina he was blaming Ray NAgin for not taking the forecasts, which were accurate, seriously and not evacuating sooner, not being properly prepared, etc. We call that hypocrisy.

You said that at the beginning of your post too, yet here you are. What have I said here that is untrue or irrational? Typical sequence, I respond to YOUR numbers, use your numbers and then you say somehow my math is wrong? It's out of context? Those were your charging numbers. Talk about irrational.

snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote in news:eae132fd-f129-4e36-b4da- snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

Damn!... And here I was hoping that you would run right out and buy an old metal case two prong drill motor and grab it while standing on a wet concrete floor barefoot with it plugged in backwards.

Part of being a successful engineer is, IMO, recognizing that not all aspects of life are engineering problems to be "solved."

The "curse of dimensionality" exists when making choices for one's personal life as well and one can always think up worst-case scenarios for just about anything that can be sufficient reason to not make a certain purchase or choose a particular choice of action.

That is to say there's a fine line between being actually-prudent and just being stodgy. Being prudent can save you a lot of pain. Being stodgy can cause you to compromise the enjoyment of things you could do on the fear of might-bes.

The payoff ideally being that you will have more enjoyment on average in life vs. some percentage chance that, at some point, you will be up shit creek without a paddle due to some decision you made which in hindsight was not appropriate to the unfortunate situation you currently find yourself in.

Unfortunate reality of the real world is that there are going to probably be at least a few shit-creek times in your life where you don't have the one thing you need or didn't do the one thing you should have done. It's probably statistically unavoidable you can only handicap it. But it doesn't make sense to run one's life around it.

That is to say trying to always hit the optimum balance in every personal-life decision you make, is an impossible standard. So don't try.

Rephrase: try, but do the best you can with the information you have in a reasonable amount of time and then don't fret the decision too much.

I think you just said, if you love the idea of an electric car, then you love it and nothing matters. Me, I tend not to fall in love with fads, trends, hyperbole and evaluate on the merits. I see no compelling advantage in an EV. And economically, they are a disaster and could not be sold, at least not enough to survive, if the govt was not heavily subsidizing them. I would consider one for a second car for use for commuting, around town, etc, if I had the need and only if there was a clear economic advantage with the tax credits.

The advantage is that an electric commuter car is a superior vehicle in just about every way to a gasoline car as far as operating costs and actual joule-per-mile consumption goes.

Climate change denialists, abiogenetic oil theorists, and other loons find no value in most of their strengths, in their worldview the government should continue to heavily subsidize the oil industry, pump an infinite amount of oil out of the ground to be burned an an ever increasing number of gasoline powered cars to be exhausted into an atmosphere capable of absorbing an infinite amount of carbon dioxide and other gases, forever.

I have no common ground to argue advantages with that type of person, unfortunately.

I can relate a serious advantage: it's a hell of a lot of fun to drive, especially as an urban commuter. Mine must have a 0 to 30 mph time of a second, it seems like that anyway. Instant acceleration, and part of the fun is the quiet, just a cool low-level whirrrr, frequency going up with speed. Dunno if it's coming from the electric motor, or inverter, but it's awesome. Automatic follow-the-car- in-front features work nicely as well, also very quiet.

--
 Thanks, 
    - Win

What's important is the overall cost of ownership, not just the operating costs and I couldn't care less about joule-per-mile. And there, absent the big govt subsidies, EV's are losers.

Where do you think the energy to recharge that car overnight in your garage comes from? Moon beams?

Oh, BTW, I reconsidered my earlier post where I said that I would consider an EV for a second car, if the cost of ownership numbers worked out and I needed one for short trips, commuting, around town, etc. But then I realized my garage is at the other end of the house from the electric panel, so to fast charge it, I'd have to run a new circuit all the way across the house. If you have a finished basement, fugggedaboutit! And whatever that cost is, it's typically going to be another $1000+ here to get that done, even with a basement that isn't finished, So, I should live with two or three days to recharge? Maybe, but it's yet another obvious problem. But heh, I'm crazy to be considering things like that.

I don't have a garage. luxury! There are many ways to produce electricity. Gasoline is gasoline.

if your only use case is for short trips and commuting around town then you clearly don't really need a car with a 250 mile range pack, my Volt's s smaller pack charges up off a 120 volt outlet to full overnight and that's usually good for a couple days worth of driving the same kind of use case.

You only need zero to full charging overnight (or whenever you sleep, most people sleep at some point) on a 250 mile range pack if you drive

250 miles a day. That's a lot of driving. Most people don't drive that much.

Just get one of these weird-looking climate-controlled electric go-carts from Mitsubishi for around-town use, they're only around $7000 used on Carmax. small battery pack that charges pretty quick even off a 120VAC outlet.

by some standards it probably deserves to be recognized as the actual Model T of electric cars. but with only about 2k units sold in the US total it'll probably be a collector's item sooner

snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote in news:7a9c0b2a-457c-4b56-b95d- snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

More proof that you are an absolute idiot.

E vehicles are ALL about battery efficiency, operating efficiency, and getting the power to the rubber.

You trivializing it as a non-factor is absolute proof that you do not even have the first clue about it.

A friend of mine's business sells them. Big problem with those is that you can only use them in certain towns here and even then only in areas where the speed limit is 25. Those and just plain old golf carts are popular in retirement communities here. The road worthy ones you see a rare one in some of the shore towns, where you can drive it from the beach ten blocks to main street or your house, that kind of thing. Definitely not for prime time, though.

As usual you conveniently edited out the rest of what I said, which was that I care about the TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP, which obviously includes the cost of the electric to run it. Got it now?

I'm pretty sure Kei-cars are street legal for all public roadways in the US if they were imported for sale by e.g. Mitsubishi in this case and met all the DOT requirements as I would assume those did