My recent Tek, Agilent, and LeCroy oscilloscope fun

Hi:

Recently at work I reviewed Tek MSO4000, Tek DPO7000, Agilent 9000, and LeCroy MXi-A series oscilloscopes.

I have purchased recently an Agilent MSO7054B, Tek MSO4054, and LeCroy

104MXi-A.

The only one I regret purchasing is the Tek. I would have preferred to have gotten their new MSO5000 model, but anyway...

The MSO4000 is my least favorite instrument, and will likely be a loaner scope for giving to labs for temporary use, or for a new tech. that we hope to hire soon. The reason is that it doesn't have the in-depth data analysis of the LeCroy, and unlike the Agilent 6000 and 7000 series, it's waveform update rate slows to a crawl whenever deep memory is used, or measurements and digital channels are turned on.

The Agilent seems to be the best bang for the buck. I've had a MSO6054 for a few years, and now several of their 7000 series. They maintain high update rates with the always-on deep memory (not quite as deep as Tek, only 4MB when running Normal, 8MB with a single acquisition). The Tek also tends to display persistence artifacts that make you think something is there, but it's not, just persistence from the last acq. So now the MSO7054 is my primary mixed signal design scope. The MSO6054 will be there for a student intern this summer.

You are probably wondering, well why the heck did I buy the Tek? I needed a histogram measurement of some PLL jitter, and the Agilent can't do that. I also mistakenly was still discounting LeCroy as not worthy of consideration.

My feelings on the LeCroy changed due to the following endeavor: First, another lab rat bought a LeCroy because it had more segments to it's segmented memory acquisition than the Agilent. Also, the Agilent can't maintain full sampling rate when more than a few 100 segments are selected. Wierd. So he started selling me on the LeCroy, after defying me and buying one after I tried to steer him toward Agilent.

Then I had a new measurement problem: Measure and optimize in real time the shot-shot energy stability (relative standard deviation) of an optical parametric oscillator, as a function of various parameters--you don't want to know. OPOs are a bitch.

Well the Agilent and Tek can spit out numbers for standard deviation and mean of an amplitude or area measure. Then I have to type them into my calculator to get rel. std. dev. The Agilent accumulates N acquisitions. The Tek has a moving average with configurable count, but an unspecified weighting function that seems to lead to discrepancies vs. the accumulating stats. on it's histograms.

Either of them can get the number with the assistance of a calculator, but neither can give it directly in real time, nor provide a trend plot.

Enter the LeCroy. LeCroy loaned me a 1GHz 104MXi-A for over two weeks. On the third day, I figured out how to make my measurement. The thing can do trend plots of any measurement parameter, such as amplitude. You can set how many past measurements to plot, so that controls the rate at which it rolls across the screen, in conjunction with the acquisition rate.

The you can compute mean and standard deviation (or any other maths) on the trend plots, not just waveforms! That produces another numeric measurement parameter output. That in turn can be put into another trend plot! Magnificent. Then I can do a mean on that, with an indicator bar. So I get three displays of my relative standard deviation measurement: a number, a trend plot, and a graphical bar indicating the average of the trend, sort of like a meter movement.

Sweet!

There is more than one way to set this up as well. It has this amazing "web math" editor that is like LabView. It lets you graphically pipe waveforms, parameters, etc. to measurements, math operations, and trend plots, then pipe those to more, then output the results to measurement parameter displays or math trace displays. That way, you can compute operations on a virtual trend plot, without having to use a visible trace, which are limited to only 8, I believe.

In short, the LeCroy is the best data analysis-oriented scope in the under $20000 class.

The only drawback to the LeCroy is waveform update rate. It simply can't come close to the Tek 4000, which also pales compared to the Agilent (note: Tek DPO7000 is in another class altogether, with up to

250000 wfms/s vs. 100000 for Agilent, but only with 25k samples!). Fortunately for my 10Hz laser pulses, this limitation of the LeCroy won't be an issue.

The LeCroy also has these cool "track" plots which are different from trend plots. Tracks are plots of the history of a measurement, time correlated with the waveform being measured. So this can effectively demodulate a PWM waveform, for ex., and plot the pulse width as a function of time, correlated with the actual PWM waveform. Likewise for other modulation schemes.

There are of course many other features in all of these instruments that I haven't yet touched upon.

For general electronic design&troubleshooting, I will be turning first to my Agilents. For tricky measurements with complicated math and multiple stages of computation as well as trend plots, the LeCroy is simply magical.

I don't think I'll be buying any more Teks unless there is something that just can't be done with any other instrument. Unlikely.

I will have a look at Yokogawa next time I'm in the market though.

LeCroy is developed and made in USA, BTW.

--
_____________________
Mr.CRC
crobcBOGUS@REMOVETHISsbcglobal.net
SuSE 10.3 Linux 2.6.22.17
Reply to
Mr.CRC
Loading thread data ...

[...]

Thanks for all that, I am (still) looking for some similar features (trend plotting and maths on measurements). I had not considered LeCroy.

Yokogawa do trend plotting too. Rohde & Shwartz have some scopes that look really nice other than lack of trend plotting, but I have been told recently that this is going to be in their new firmware. (All these are ~$20k class devices too).

Can the LeCroy do XY plots of measurements? That would open the door to lots of things, you could reproduce onscreen many of the graphs you see in component datasheets. For example gain vs temperature, PWM duty vs circuit output voltage etc.

--

John Devereux
Reply to
John Devereux

All nice, except that LeCroy is evil.

John

Reply to
John Larkin
[...]

Nice write-up.

There's a switch. Used to be that they were made in Switzerland, but since I don't have your budget, I've not used or worked on anything newer than the LC series.

Reply to
JW

clip ....

There's been quite a discussion lately about all the analysis various scopes can do. But whatever they build into a scope, its going to be nothing compared to what you can do by downloading the data into a programming environment such as Matlab, IDL, Octave, R, whatever. Why not let the scope be a scope, let a computer be a computer? So then the question is: how fast can these scopes transfer files to a PC? How easy is it for a user program on a PC to control the scope, get it's status, and transfer the files? Does the scope manufacturer supply you with some PC software to make this kind of operation easier?

Paul Probert

Reply to
Paul Probert

I've told the story before. They tried to put me out of business, back when Walter thought he had exclusive worldwide rights to the nanosecond.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

I agree. Although I feel there is a huge gap in the market. There are tons of low end 100MHz BW and more memory depth you easily end up at >$4000.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to
Nico Coesel

I think this is a good point. I used this in the past to do some prototyping where I used a measurement instrument as an analog front-end to process some real input signals. Another nice to have would be the ability to write plug-ins. For example: a few months ago I wrote an SPI decoder plug-in for my TLA704 logic analyser.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to
Nico Coesel

On a sunny day (Fri, 17 Dec 2010 20:27:25 -0800) it happened "Mr.CRC" wrote in :

Don't listen to him. LeCroy was his competition once and undercut his price. That makes it 'evil' you see.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Now tell them the rest of the story.

Reply to
krw

On a sunny day (Sat, 18 Dec 2010 09:35:50 -0600) it happened " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote in :

OK, he did not make a profit this year?

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Once a liar, always a liar, Jan.

Reply to
krw

We were asked, by Los Alamos, to design and build a 1 ns resolution TDC module, as an alternate to some truly terrible LeCroy units (their

4208, our M680). The LeCroys were expensive, slow delivery, up to 50% DOA, and took six months to get fixed. The next bid, LeCroy somehow found out there would be competition and cut their price in half to kill us. Our friend at Los Alamos disqualified them on technical grounds!

That TDC was our first high-speed product. I'd never done anything like that before.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

The premium brands are mostly asian too. Most Tek stuff is built in China. The low-end Agilent scopes are rebranded Rigols. Agilent is increasingly moving manufacturing to Maylasia.

If I'm going to buy a Rigol scope, I may as well buy it from Rigol, instead of paying Agilent 2.5X the price for the same box.

Some of the Keithley benchtop DVMs are Chinese rebrands. Crap. I sent three of them back to Keithley.

Though there is an

My 50 MHz Rigol is great. It has a lot more features than my Tek TDS2012, which is over three times the price. Nicer probes, too.

I wonder if there are any good Chinese spectrum analyzers.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

On a sunny day (Sat, 18 Dec 2010 10:14:14 -0600) it happened " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote in :

I did not know he was that too, because that was HIS statement.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

:

You're illiterate, too. ...but I knew that.

Reply to
krw

I wanted the liar to tell the rest of the story. I knew the Europeon moron couldn't tell the truth.

Reply to
krw

On a sunny day (Sat, 18 Dec 2010 14:13:56 -0600) it happened " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote in :

:

Sorry about your Alzheimer progressing, I have read they found a cause though. It won't help you now, but if you re-incarnate as a demonrat you may have a chance.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

What in the world are you talking about? The story is true. The CAMAC modules exist. You can even buy them, ours and LeCroy's, on ebay now and then.

Theirs was ECL. Mine was AC-class CMOS and an Actel FPGA.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

:

chance.

You even sound like Slowman. Kill yourself now.

Reply to
krw

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.