MOSFET with best drain current per dollar or per area

It is tempting to make a spot welder from the Maxwell ultracapacitors e.g. the 3000F ones rated for 1900 Amps each. There is something nice about the idea of a spot welder that does not draw large pulses of current from the mains, and a cordless spot welder would be a novelty.

I figure that something in the region of 10kA to 30kA output current would make it useful enough to justify the effort. I understand that the welding voltage is normally a couple of volts or so, but if the weld is in an awkward location then cables or tongs might drop more voltage than the weld itself.

If you work out the energy required for a spot weld, it is far less than the energy contained in one of those capacitors, let alone several in parallel. Therefore it is going to be necessary to switch off the current somehow.

Once one is doing that, it becomes tempting to regulate the current with a bunch of switching current regulators or buck converters, perhaps with multiple phases interleaved.

It seems like most cheap FET packages are limited to about 100 Amps, so a bunch of 100 Amp current regulators with the outputs in parallel might be good.

What is the cheapest FET per current? The voltages would be small, even a series-parallel capacitor bank might be charged to 10 Volts at most. Since there might be a hundred of these mosfets to reach a total of e.g.

10kA, a small package would help. It seems to me that for any FETs that have a high enough current rating, the RDSon will be far better than required.

It only needs to withstand the current for a few hundred milliseconds, maybe every 5 seconds.

Also, any ideas for making cheap high current inductors? Perhaps the cables to the welding electrodes would have enough inductance for a single switching current regulator or buck converter, though if instead of one large buck converter, many small (100A) converters are interleaved, then separare insulated strands would be needed for each converter, and the mutual inductance might mess things up.

Reply to
Chris Jones
Loading thread data ...

Why not adjust the voltage on the caps, and just dump it into the weld?

Switching on and off wouldn't be hard, but current regulation would be a lot of work at 30KA. At even 300 amps per fet, that's 100 fets.

Maybe use a giant puck SCR?

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

Good welders employ a pre-pulse a variable delay, and a main pulse.

Steve

Reply to
sroberts6328

Chris' project should have a priority list...

(1) Make sure debris doesn't hit one in balls.

(2) ....

...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

formatting link
| 1962 |

Reply to
Jim Thompson

I tried welding with two of those caps in series, just for fun.

Connected with a short length of #12(?) wire for ballast, no joy.

Regular welders do fine with 80-120A, ISTM the limitation with these caps is getting sufficient amperage through the resistance of the workpiece.

YMMV.

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

For cheap, HY1707.

--
 Thanks, 
    - Win
Reply to
Winfield Hill

....

I think you need much thicker wire and a lot of contact pressure on the weld.

That might be the current drawn by the mains input, for a small one. AIUI, for automotive steel spot welding it is nice to have 10kA, and to spot-weld thick aluminium up to 40kA can be required. For example see:

formatting link

Agreed.

Reply to
Chris Jones

Hehe the reason I have had a long obsession with getting a spot welder is that I was allowed to play with a big one (with foot pedal operating compressed air to close the electrodes) in a sheet metal workshop (also with round punches, guillotine, notcher, folder etc) probably before I was ten years old. It's not scary, it is just like a stapler for sheet metal. I had great fun making a dustpan out of what I found in the scrap bin.

Reply to
Chris Jones

It would force a certain ratio of peak current vs. total energy, which is not nice, as they have different effects and should ideally be independently adjustable. Also it would be nice to be able to achieve arbitrary current vs. time waveforms, as good commercial spot welders can.

Reply to
Chris Jones

I grew up in the golden days of American education. In Junior High School I was required to take Wood Shop, Sheet Metal Shop and Drafting. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Short answer, don't even try to switch the weld current. My experiments with using caps and a sacrificial mechanical switch resulted in dismal repeatability.

I spent a lot of time fiddling with a modified microwave transformer to weld battery tabs. I switched the primary with a SCR. Ignoring the several critical electrical issues, the problem is getting enough energy into the weld REPEATABLY. If your source resistance is low and the weld time is long, even a tiny change in weld resistance will make a major change in the weld energy. With practice, I was able to make a good weld about 90% of the time. Do the math. I rarely constructed a complete battery pack with all good welds.

I switched to a commercial welder. It varies the voltage on a capacitor between 0 and 600V to set weld energy. Switching via a single SCR. The high ratio transformer produces up to 7000 A into one milliohm.

formatting link

Open circuit voltage is relatively high, so changes in weld resistance are proportionally reduced. Raising the weld resistance has relatively little effect on the ENERGY delivered. The short weld time gives less opportunity for the heat to escape through the weldment.

Weld repeatability is WAY BETTER.

I expect there's lots of magic in the design of that transformer.

There's also a lot of magic in the electrode management system if you expect repeatability. This is what I ended up with:

formatting link

formatting link

Reply to
mike

One could PWM into the load, and keep the efficiency up.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

...

...

I have a small MIG (90A max) that runs on a 120v 20A ckt. My 225A stick welder runs on a 50A 240v ckt.

My homemade spot welder produces about 2kA (calculated), which is enough to weld 2 pieces of 1/8" mild steel together. I don't see why 10-20kA would be needed. Except to keep the time very short & then I don't see the need to do that. Except for battery tabs.

Bob

Reply to
Bob Engelhardt

I'm missing something. Why do you need to switch the current? They don't have a switch on the secondary side of a transformer based welder, it is on the primary side. If you are concerned about safety, just unplug the cables when you aren't using it.

The switch on a welder is in the welder's hand.

--

Rick C
Reply to
rickman

Sorry, I missed that it was a spot welder... duh!

--

Rick C
Reply to
rickman

Yes, the spot welder I've seen clamped the work like a vise grip. I think the issue is to get a good contact between the welder and the metal so most of the resistance is between the two materials so that is the part that gets hottest.

Isn't it an issue of work piece resistance vs tool resistance? What is the internal resistance of the caps. Is that the limitation?

--

Rick C
Reply to
rickman

Be damn careful about eye-squared-tee; a parameter that everyone including their pet goldfish dropped from datasheets back in the late '70s.

Reply to
Robert Baer

Such welders do exist, and they do work, but they are considered less optimal than a current regulated one.

The problem is that you cannot control the resistance of the workpiece. With a constant amount of energy delivered to each weld, due to the variable resistance, the weld will sometimes be a low current over a long time and other times a high current over a short time. This leads to inconsistent results.

--
RoRo
Reply to
Robert Roland

Isn't that what you require, constant energy?

--
Mike Perkins 
Video Solutions Ltd 
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk
Reply to
Mike Perkins

You want enough force to get good electrical contact, but you don't want too much force, as you will then squish out the molten metal, leaving the weld thin and weak.

--
RoRo
Reply to
Robert Roland

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.