Monkey Brains - Page 5

Do you have a question? Post it now! No Registration Necessary

Translate This Thread From English to

Threaded View
Re: Monkey Brains
On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 17:02:25 +0100, Tom Gardner

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Our old building had/has a water-powered, mustly wood hydraulic
elevator. Sadly, it will be torn down soon for ugly apartments.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: Monkey Brains
On 2018-08-23 09:23, John Larkin wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Oh horror. Will they at least salvage the elevator so it can be used or  
displayed elsewhere? That is truly a piece of technical history.

--  
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Re: Monkey Brains
wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Fiber is ideal for the terabit backhauls into the net. RF is ideal for
the last few miles.  

You can jump a mile, at hundreds of megabit rates, with a pair of
dishes that cost $300 and can be installed in an afternoon. Or trench
and lay fiber in pipes for a good chunk of a million dollars.

A 5G sort of network wouldn't even need dishes, just discrete little
plastic tube things here and there.

It's shocking to me how much bandwidth we have already. How many cell
phones and wifi connections do we have now?

https://www.cisco.com/c/m/en_us/solutions/service-provider/vni-forecast-highlights.html


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: Monkey Brains
On 23/08/18 18:20, John Larkin wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
[snip!]
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Like any resource considered to be plenty, _all_ of it will be taken.
That's just the nature of living things.

Jeroen Belleman

Re: Monkey Brains
On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 20:13:48 +0200, Jeroen Belleman

Quoted text here. Click to load it

The electricity and water and gas pipes into our house are all we'll
ever need. I don't think we'd ever have use for more than a few
hundred megabits per second of data.

A gigabit/sec per person, for everyone on the planet, should be more
than enough. 1e17 bytes/second. Unless we get brain-to-brain
interfaces or something.

People are looking at that!

https://kernel.co/







--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: Monkey Brains
On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

More likely, that bandwidth would be totally consumed by a bevy of botnets.

Re: Monkey Brains
wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Eventually, isp's will have to start sniffing packets and refuse to
transport some categories of traffic. Like malware, for instance.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: Monkey Brains
On Friday, August 24, 2018 at 10:10:01 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

The IEEE e-mail aliasing service has been doing that for many years.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: Monkey Brains
On 2018-08-23 12:20, John Larkin wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

RF is the ticket into the future.


Quoted text here. Click to load it


Or not. I do not own a smart phone and, right now, can't see enough  
advantages to having one.


Quoted text here. Click to load it

I have 6Mbits/sec max download here and rarely use that. Video  
conferecing can demand up to 1.5Mbits/sec but that's about it.


Quoted text here. Click to load it

To me what's human is what I did yesterday. Rode the mountain bike on  
the El Dorado Trail. Stopped for a beer, of course. Met some horses. Ate  
wild blackberries. Unfortunately one of my riding buddies crashed but  
didn't get hurt badly and we could fix the damage to his bike on the trail.

--  
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Re: Monkey Brains
On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 10:33:59 -0700, John Larkin

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Looks like Microtik 60GHz but I'm not sure.  That dish package is
available on other frequencies.  Also, nice looking installation.  I'm
jealous:
<https://mikrotik.com/product/wireless_wire_dish
High atmospheric oxygen attenuation at 60GHz:
<https://www.rfglobalnet.com/doc/fixed-wireless-communications-at-60ghz-unique-0001

Quoted text here. Click to load it

5G yes, but probably not mesh.  Store and forward wireless mesh
networks don't work very well and don't scale well for large system.
Here's my disorganized notes for a talk I gave on why mesh sucks:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/FLUG-talk-2015-02-28/Mesh-talk.pdf>
My guess(tm) is 5G on 28/39GHz will go to with small cells where you
have fabulous performance near the small cell radio, and nothing as
you move away from it.  The rest is just installing small cell radios
wherever possible.  That leaves the problem with the backhaul, which
will probably be a mix of wireless and fiber:
<https://www.rcrwireless.com/20160711/network-infrastructure/small-cells-tag31-tag99

Best of luck in the new building.


--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: Monkey Brains
On 20/08/18 19:33, John Larkin wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Wireless runs out of total bandwidth - links interfere with each other.
 It's great for cases where it's hard to get a cable link of some sort -
but it's only great as long as there are few people using them.  And it
can be affected by the weather.

Our fibre is 500/500 Mbps - regardless of weather, or other customers.
If we want up to 10/10 Gbps, they need to blow a new fibre down the tube
which is quickly and easily done.



Re: Monkey Brains
On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 09:15:12 +0200, David Brown

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Most of those problems are mitigated by directional antennas and
short-range, high attenuation links. And applying sheer bandwidth and
signal processing.

Wireless is ideal for the last mile, or eventually the last 50 meters.

Our new security system is all wireless. That saved a fortune in
wiring. We can add sensors and cameras ourselves, whenever and
wherever we want.

Our telephones work over the microwave link, too.

We do have two land lines for the fire system. That's required.




--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: Monkey Brains
On 21/08/18 16:59, John Larkin wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Only to some extent; there are significant limits
to such effects. And importantly they are site specific,
can be difficult to predict, and (depending on the
cellular standard) vary more or less over time. Here
today gone tomorrow is not something a user want to
experience!

One of the standard comparisons of how different
modulation schemes performs in a cellular systems
is to express their capacity in bits/s / Hz / km^2

The bits/s/Hz is obvious; the /km^2 adds in the
effects of co-channel and adjacent channel
interference.


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Not really, no. It can push a limit out, but
there will still be a limit. Given that over time
bit/s will expand to fill the available bandwidth,
it can only delay the inevitable.

But before the inevitable occurs, there may be some
benefit.


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Interestingly that is where the 60GHz ISM band might
help. It is pretty useless for cellular systems due
to the "oxygen hole", but that is a benefit w.r.t.
co-channel interference.

60GHz is also nice w.r.t. making highly directional
antennas; it is amusing to realise that ordinary
thicknesses of plastic can act as anti-reflection
"coatings".

OTOH, the last I heard (in the late 90s) there was
a hard limit on the transmit power, defined by
the transmitter transitor geometry and thermodynamics.


Re: Monkey Brains
On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 18:21:19 +0100, Tom Gardner

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Up on the roof, with my mediocre eyesight, I counted 35 microwave
dishes on nearby buildings. In the square mile or so around me, there
were probably 20,000 cell phones and maybe a thousand wi-fi's. And
that giant TV tower. And it all works.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: Monkey Brains
On 22/08/18 03:46, John Larkin wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Dedicated point-to-point systems are very different
to ad-hoc cellular systems. They have different
constraints.

The cell phones and wifi systems you mention are very
definitely subject to capacity limitations.

Wi-fi has the advantage (and disadvantage) that walls
windows and doors somewhat impede propagation, thus
allowing (and enforcing) smaller cells. But in buildings
propagation can be, um, surprising - leading to
unpredictable high density spots and propagation holes.

Re: Monkey Brains
On Tuesday, August 21, 2018 at 7:46:35 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Mediocre eyesight, but you have great imagination to think that a thousand
wi-fis aren't colliding furiously.   Your new link is at an unused part of
the spectrum, won't turn unreliable this year.

Every IOT gismo that uses 'b' or 'g' to save money is taking chunks out
of the usability of WiFi.  So is your microwave oven and cordless phone.

Re: Monkey Brains
wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

My wi-fi's at work and at home always work. Collisions get resolved in
milliseconds. It all works, and uses a fraction of the potentially
available spectrum.

Our wi-fi at home probably collides with ten others. That's the
advantage of short-range, high-attenuation RF nets; collisions are
limited.

Broadcast TV and FM are anachronisms, and getting rid of them would
open vast spectrums.  

That microwave dish on our roof costs something like $60. High-volume
electronics is incredibly cheap. So a town could be covered with
thousands of gigabit microcells at a tiny fraction of the cost of
running wires and fibers to every house.

The future will be different.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: Monkey Brains
On 22/08/18 16:31, John Larkin wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

The "resolution time" is an irrelevant metric.

In cities over here (and in high density US cities) it isn't
unknown for your wifi to work until someone else's new
installation clobbers it.

And in the ISM bands you have to accept such interference;
that's the cost of them being unregulated.


Quoted text here. Click to load it

That entirely depends on the neighbourhood and density. Over
here (where 100 miles is a long way and 100 years isn't a long
time) wifis frequently become "slower", and it can be difficult
to attribute a specific cause let alone a cure it.

One common use of wifi over here is video streaming, where
each terminal can soak up noticable bandwidth over a long
period.

One use of the 60GHz band that I expect to see is as a wireless
replacement for the cable going to monitors. That will soak up
bandwidth, hopefully only over a very short radius!


Quoted text here. Click to load it

A couple of decades ago someone noted that "in the future
everything that is transmitted by wires will become wireless,
and everything broadcast will be transmitted over wires".

After pondering that for a couple of months, I started to
suspect that would come true.


Quoted text here. Click to load it

That's why it is useful to get back to the physics and
thermodynamics; they change very slowly.


Re: Monkey Brains
On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 18:54:27 +0100, Tom Gardner

Quoted text here. Click to load it

That happens in Truckee; on a big holiday weekend, a zillion kids are
watching movies when they should be out hiking in fresh air, and
things slow down. But that's probably a data pipe limitation into the
whole town, not a local wi-fi issue. There are only a few houses in
our wi-fi radius.



--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: Monkey Brains
On 23/08/18 04:05, John Larkin wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

In many place, both at residential and commercial, there are far
more than a few!

Since wireless is so much more convenient than wireless, the
density can be expected to increase over time.

It is another variant of the classic "tragedy of the
commons" phenomena.

Site Timeline