Monkey Brains

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We're moving into our newish building and there is no good internet
access here without digging up sidewalks. So we signed up with
MonkeyBrains. They put a dish on the roof, and luckily we are
line-of-sight to one of their places.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d8hjlm1pktyetfi/Monkey_Dish.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t26b435y76nm9ce/Monkey_Brains.jpg?raw=1

370 mbps is some radical modulation and technology in a cheap
microwave link.

We're paying for 50/50 mbits. We were getting 30/0.8 over a classic
twisted pair from the phone company.

This is pretty cool. I specuate that in 10 years or so, *everything*
will be wireless, 5G meshes or something.




--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

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Monkey Brains
800 kbps upload for your entire shop? Yikes. I get 25/25 reliably, and it's just me and one hunchback.  

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Re: Monkey Brains
On 2018/08/20 10:33 AM, John Larkin wrote:
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Our older warehouse complex here in Burnaby, BC (Canada) was just wired  
up to fiber. We selecting 15/15, but could go to 300/300 for only a bit  
over double what we are paying...

https://www.telus.com/en/bc/business/campaigns/fibre?cmp=KNC_bdls_bSBS_Google_&SEM_CID14%94656614&SEM_AG59%262917898&SEM_KW=%2Btelus%20%2Binternet%20%2Bspeed&SEM_MT=b&gclidEA%IaIQobChMIvf7TmJr83AIVWG1-Ch3wfQ04EAAYASACEgK_VfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Tinyurl:

https://tinyurl.com/Telus-Fiber

Sale prices in Canadian $, which is around $0.73 on the USD right now.  
$100CAD = $73USD.

I'd say fiber has an advantage...

John

Re: Monkey Brains
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MikroTik LHG 60G.
60 GHz WiFi, maxes out at 1Gbps fullduplex due to hardware interface,
list price $300 for a pair.  Works up to about 1500m (a mile).

Re: Monkey Brains

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This is it:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/maf12qoae6204tp/Mikrotik.JPG?dl=0


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Amazing technology for $300.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: Monkey Brains
On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 13:43:30 -0700, John Larkin

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Actually, they cost $70 each on Amazon.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: Monkey Brains
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$298 is the list price.  beware, this is the LHG 60G ("wireless wire dish")
which is the 60 GHz model, not the original LHG which is 5 GHz but
will not be able to do 300 Mbit/s fullduplex under realistic conditions.

Re: Monkey Brains
John Larkin wrote:
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It must include the radio in the dish's focus because I see coax instead  
of waveguide.  I used to install similar things but I didn't know how  
far it has advanced.  Or radios were huge and mounted on the opposite  
side of the mast with a short waveguide.

But cell tower antennas don't seem to have changed as much.




Re: Monkey Brains
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What you see is not coax, it is UTP.
The entire radio and router is integrated in the feed portion of the
dish, and a 1 Gbps ethernet link is going inside, where a power-over-
ethernet injector is used to send power up.
You connect the UTP to your network and get the IP packets in and out.

The router can do many things besides simple routing, these devices
are quite versatile.  Of course they can do bridge mode as well, that
is the default configuration.

I'm not yet 100% sure that what John has is actually the new 60 GHz
model, the sticker he showed is applied by the installer and there
is a 5 GHz model which has been on the market longer and is cheaper.
It has the same functionality except no self-alignment and of course
it is slower.   Those are the ones available for $70 a piece.
(the $300 is for a pair of 60 GHz units)

Re: Monkey Brains
Rob wrote:
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Is the self-alignment mechanical?


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The systems I helped install were around 20k per pair.




Re: Monkey Brains
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No, it is "beam steering".  There is an array of small antennas at
the feed position and the radio selects the best combination of them,
shifting the focus position and thus the direction of the beam.
There are leds on the case that indicate if the selected beam is
off-center and the dish can be initially aligned using those.  The
current offset angle can also be read from the web interface.

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Of course this is not a professional system.  It just shows what
can be done today at an incredible price point.

Re: Monkey Brains
Rob wrote:
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I started to ask if phased arrays could be viable in a mesh network but  
realized it would be too inefficient.

If a phased array only adjusts a few degrees (going into a parabolic  
reflector) then I guess it would be more efficient than some 120 degree  
RADAR or something.  Radio stations use 3-element arrays but that's just  
to get most of the power going one way, while they actually want some to  
go the other way.


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By measuring the AGC voltage on the dishes I used to set up, I could get  
them within a small fraction of a degree but I couldn't say how small.  
Beam steering could have better resolution but depends how well they're  
made.




Re: Monkey Brains
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There is another model of the same device (without the dish) that
uses the phased array to steer the beam over a wide angle like a
phased array radar.  These can work in a point-to-multipoint setup
over a shorter range (like 200m).

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And also the software.  They have been improving the performance
of the thing just by upgrading the software that runs the beamforming.

Re: Monkey Brains
On 2018-08-20 10:33, John Larkin wrote:
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Until it rains really hard. That is when the wireless highspeed of a  
client goes down, completely.

Though I agree, wireless is the future and just about the only option to  
(re-) crack the old Missy Bell monopolies.

--  
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Re: Monkey Brains
wrote:

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It doesn't rain much here! And the hop is only a few blocks, with a
claimed 174 dB margin.

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--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: Monkey Brains
Joerg wrote:
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I've helped my friend install a dozen microwave links, mostly in the  
90's with the state of the art then.  I think they were 20 GHz and  
according to him they never go down because of weather when they're  
aimed properly.

We would sweep them horizontally and vertically several times to find  
the best signal, measured to 4 digits with a meter on the AGC test  
point.  Tweaking microvolts with a big crescent wrench is fun.




Re: Monkey Brains
On 08/22/2018 01:55 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
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Back in the early '80s I helped design the first civilian  
direct-broadcast satellite system, SpaceTel from AEL Microtel in  
Vancouver BC.  (Actually it was in Burnaby, but nobody knows where that  
is, and it's right next door.)

It was a 12/14 GHz system that fit in a single rack and would give you a  
few Toronto/Vancouver/Riyadh/Johannesburg dial tones from some remote  
place in the bush--pretty swoopy for 1982.  It was good for mining  
camps, oil rigs, and so on, and was quite happy operating in a tin shack  
in the Arctic or the Saudi desert.  I recall that there was a heat pipe  
someplace in it that was designed to freeze up in cold weather to reduce  
the total temperature range.

It used 3-foot dish antennas, which we aligned using a cardboard set  
square cut for the appropriate elevation angle for the installation's  
latitude, a compass for azimuth, and a well-calibrated boot for fine  
adjustment.  (Of course we also dragged along a Tek 7S12 spectrum  
analyzer for percussive peaking.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--  
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
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Re: Monkey Brains
On 20/08/18 20:06, Joerg wrote:
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Or the trees grow leaves (I believe a problem at 28GHz).

Those affect the link budget, and can naively be taken
into account. However, the interactions between tx power,
link budget, co-channel interference, adjacent channel
interference, topography are, ahem, "interesting".

In practice there is an awful lot of suck-it-and-see.

Even in mature networks there are "problem cells" where
the network operations staff don't understand what's wrong
and, sometimes they don't even know what's "out there".
Even if they have adequate inventory control/discovery,
their staff will go out and tweak an antenna until the
(current) problem goes away - and not bother to inform
the network centre.

Re: Monkey Brains
Tom Gardner wrote:
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An installation is always preceded by a survey.  No trees would be near  
the path.




Re: Monkey Brains
On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 6:07:12 PM UTC-7, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
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Here in Seattle, the 'until it rains' bit is a killer.   So, the confident claim
that 'the path' has no trees is only a secondary concern.   Trees grow real
tall, fast, in this climate.   Heck, I've measured dandelions here at over 1 meter tall.

I surveyed one link here, with trees in the way, but the map said it would
clear the terrain and buildings, so... we got a mile long link at (5GHz? )
by aiming according to the compass reading.   It worked fine, trees, rain, and all.


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