It's Starting

Wildfires rage in Arctic Circle as Sweden calls for help

formatting link

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred
Loading thread data ...

They are using helicopters, aircraft, international assistance to put out the fire. Exactly the tools that accumulate even more fuel load for ever-bigger fires.

Trees grow and burn. The choice is to have the traditional many small fires, or the modern less frequent but gigantic ones.

"There have been huge fires in the past in Sweden, but not over such a wide area." Exactly.

--
John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
John Larkin

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 6:46:42 PM UTC+2, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrot e:

It's an unusually dry and warm summer. There are going to be more of them , particularly close to the Arctic Circle, which is warming up faster than t he rest of the world, but is isn't the first time that Sweden has had fores t fires, and it's certainly not evidence that any kind of threshold has bee n crossed.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

ote:

, particularly close to the Arctic Circle, which is warming up faster than the rest of the world, but is isn't the first time that Sweden has had for est fires, and it's certainly not evidence that any kind of threshold has b een crossed.

It's the huge boreal forest fires inside the arctic circle that are unprece dented, not just in Sweden but all across Eurasia and into Alaska and Canad a. "The study, published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that the boreal forests have not burned at today? ?s high rates for at least the past 10,000 years,..."

formatting link
The planet not only loses vast swaths of carbon sink, but the fires contrib ute huge amounts of GHG emissions and heat absorbing soot deposits in the w orst possible of places.

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

Not exactly. Putting out the fires doesn't add any extra fuel load.

Letting the fires burn themselves out would use up most of the fuel, but the regrowth might not be the kind of ground cover that the Swedes want.

Not in Sweden.

It's a warmer, drier, summer than usual. The problem with Sweden is that it is mostly too cold and too wet - even in summer - to have the kind of small fires that reduce the fuel load.

Around Sydney, the fire services burn off dodgy bits of bush during the winter when the bush is dry enough to burn, but not dry enough for the burn-off to get out of control. California is reputed to use the same approach thse days.

Sweden is a lot further from the equator.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

em , particularly close to the Arctic Circle, which is warming up faster th an the rest of the world, but is isn't the first time that Sweden has had f orest fires, and it's certainly not evidence that any kind of threshold has been crossed.

cedented, not just in Sweden but all across Eurasia and into Alaska and Can ada. "The study, published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academ y of Sciences, found that the boreal forests have not burned at today? ?s high rates for at least the past 10,000 years,..."

formatting link

ibute huge amounts of GHG emissions and heat absorbing soot deposits in the worst possible of places.

Boreal forests aren't huge carbon sinks. They don't get much sun so they do n't do enough photosynthesis to capture all that much CO2.

Soot matters when it fall on ice, but there's a lot less ice and snow on th e ground and on the sea surface during arctic summers these days, and bare water reflects a great deal less solar radiation than ice or snow.

Your kind of Chicken Little alarmism plays right into John Larkins attempts to expalin every last warning about anthropgenic global warming as more of the same.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

They didn't have many fire trucks and helicopters and aerial tankers

10,000 years ago. They just let things burn.

California has the same effect. The natives and the first Spanish settlers were wary of frequent, but geographically limited, fires. But now we put the small ones out, and get huge fuel loads and giant fires. People blame ignition sources!

--
John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
John Larkin

ote:

them , particularly close to the Arctic Circle, which is warming up faster than the rest of the world, but is isn't the first time that Sweden has had forest fires, and it's certainly not evidence that any kind of threshold h as been crossed.

recedented, not just in Sweden but all across Eurasia and into Alaska and C anada. "The study, published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Acad emy of Sciences, found that the boreal forests have not burned at today? ??s high rates for at least the past 10,000 years,..."

formatting link

78

tribute huge amounts of GHG emissions and heat absorbing soot deposits in t he worst possible of places.

don't do enough photosynthesis to capture all that much CO2.

"...[boreal forests] plays a crucial role in the globe?s carbon bud get, since these forests represent nearly 10 percent of the planet? s land surface and contain more than 30 percent of the carbon that is store d on land, in plants and soils." The fires free up this stored carbon. The winds carry the soot to the snow and ice farther north.

the ground and on the sea surface during arctic summers these days, and bar e water reflects a great deal less solar radiation than ice or snow.

ts to expalin every last warning about anthropgenic global warming as more of the same.

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

The previous two summers have been very wet and the farmers complaining

This summer has been very dry and the farmers complain :-)

Having over +30C above the Arctic Circle is no means rare, but usually it lass only a few days at a time, but year, the hot periods have been longer.

Depending on the jet stream routes each year, part of Europe is dry, while other areas suffer from flooding. The next year the areas might e reversed, so the situation averages out usually after a few years.

Now alarmists pick a single year and a single area that match their exceptions and claim that the sky is falling. Looking with a broader perspective and much of the extreme phenomenons average out.

Reply to
upsidedown

:

f them , particularly close to the Arctic Circle, which is warming up faste r than the rest of the world, but is isn't the first time that Sweden has h ad forest fires, and it's certainly not evidence that any kind of threshold has been crossed.

nprecedented, not just in Sweden but all across Eurasia and into Alaska and Canada. "The study, published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Ac ademy of Sciences, found that the boreal forests have not burned at today ?s high rates for at least the past 10,000 years,..."

formatting link

16278

ontribute huge amounts of GHG emissions and heat absorbing soot deposits in the worst possible of places.

y don't do enough photosynthesis to capture all that much CO2.

udget, since these forests represent nearly 10 percent of the planet? ?s land surface and contain more than 30 percent of the carbon that is st ored on land, in plants and soils." The fires free up this stored carbon. T he winds carry the soot to the snow and ice farther north.

That definition of "boreal" forest would have to go a lot further south tha n Sweden to allow it to cover 10% of the planet's land surface, and a lot f urther south still to allow it to represent 30% of the plant-stored carbon.

Stockholm is in the south of Sweden, and it's at roughly the same latitude as Anchorage, Alaska. What's north of that in the US and Canada includes a lot of permafrost. Sweden can have forests that far north because of the Gu lf Stream.

The Swedish boreal forst isn't all that extensive.

formatting link

In reality we haven't got a clear idea of how much is carbon stored in perm afrost, so that "30%" may be a bogus statistic.

There's not a lot of ice left north of Sweden, and what does survive is cov ered with little pools of melt water at this time of the year. Soot isn't g oing to make much difference to its albedo.

n the ground and on the sea surface during arctic summers these days, and b are water reflects a great deal less solar radiation than ice or snow.

mpts to explain every last warning about anthropgenic global warming as mor e of the same.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

Do you seriously believe all this crap?

--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via  
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other  
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Cursitor Doom

rote:

te:

of them , particularly close to the Arctic Circle, which is warming up fas ter than the rest of the world, but is isn't the first time that Sweden has had forest fires, and it's certainly not evidence that any kind of thresho ld has been crossed.

unprecedented, not just in Sweden but all across Eurasia and into Alaska a nd Canada. "The study, published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that the boreal forests have not burned at today ?s high rates for at least the past 10,000 years,..."

formatting link

16278

contribute huge amounts of GHG emissions and heat absorbing soot deposits in the worst possible of places.

hey don't do enough photosynthesis to capture all that much CO2.

budget, since these forests represent nearly 10 percent of the planet? ??s land surface and contain more than 30 percent of the carbon that is stored on land, in plants and soils." The fires free up this stored carbon . The winds carry the soot to the snow and ice farther north.

han Sweden to allow it to cover 10% of the planet's land surface, and a lot further south still to allow it to represent 30% of the plant-stored carbo n.

e as Anchorage, Alaska. What's north of that in the US and Canada includes a lot of permafrost. Sweden can have forests that far north because of the Gulf Stream.

rmafrost, so that "30%" may be a bogus statistic.

Actually this has been studied with great precision and we do in fact have very good working knowledge of these parameters:

formatting link

overed with little pools of melt water at this time of the year. Soot isn't going to make much difference to its albedo.

I believe this stuff gets into the upper atmosphere and travels along lines of constant latitude. Gray and brown absorb more heat than green and blue. The planet warms as a result. Then there's the atmospheric heat infusion p ulsing of the actual fire itself.

on the ground and on the sea surface during arctic summers these days, and bare water reflects a great deal less solar radiation than ice or snow.

tempts to explain every last warning about anthropgenic global warming as m ore of the same.

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

rote:

m , particularly close to the Arctic Circle, which is warming up faster tha n the rest of the world, but is isn't the first time that Sweden has had fo rest fires, and it's certainly not evidence that any kind of threshold has been crossed.

Those are just scalar statistics and don't tell you enough about the biosph ere. It is wiser to look at population declines and extinction events among the flora and fauna to get an idea of the disruption. Obviously something is going on when we see lifeforms we know have been stabilized for millions of years start to disappear. Means of this and that and everything else be damned.

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

You're the one brainwashed by the crap biblical story that the Earth was created for mankind. Well, it wasn't, and it won't be habitable much longer.

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

Pass the reefer, my man.

Reply to
+++ATH0

The Guardian doesn't publish crap. It also doesn't publish the kind of stuff that's designed to make right-wing nitwits - like Cursitor Doom - happy, so they don't like it and don't trust it.

Cursitor Doom puts his faith in the Daily Mail and Russia Today, which publish total crap, but the kind of crap tha makes Cursitor doom feel all warm and gooey inside.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

:

rote:

re of them , particularly close to the Arctic Circle, which is warming up f aster than the rest of the world, but is isn't the first time that Sweden h as had forest fires, and it's certainly not evidence that any kind of thres hold has been crossed.

re unprecedented, not just in Sweden but all across Eurasia and into Alaska and Canada. "The study, published Monday in the Proceedings of the Nationa l Academy of Sciences, found that the boreal forests have not burned at tod ay?s high rates for at least the past 10,000 years,..."

formatting link
e-16278

es contribute huge amounts of GHG emissions and heat absorbing soot deposit s in the worst possible of places.

they don't do enough photosynthesis to capture all that much CO2.

on budget, since these forests represent nearly 10 percent of the planet? ??s land surface and contain more than 30 percent of the carbon that is stored on land, in plants and soils." The fires free up this stored carbon . The winds carry the soot to the snow and ice farther north.

than Sweden to allow it to cover 10% of the planet's land surface, and a l ot further south still to allow it to represent 30% of the plant-stored car bon.

ude as Anchorage, Alaska. What's north of that in the US and Canada include s a lot of permafrost. Sweden can have forests that far north because of th e Gulf Stream.

permafrost, so that "30%" may be a bogus statistic.

e very good working knowledge of these parameters:

formatting link

That's about live vegetation, and says nothing about carbon stored in the s oil or in permafrost. You completely missed the point.

covered with little pools of melt water at this time of the year. Soot isn 't going to make much difference to its albedo.

es of constant latitude. Gray and brown absorb more heat than green and blu e. The planet warms as a result. Then there's the atmospheric heat infusion pulsing of the actual fire itself.

If it gets into the upper atmosphere it is going to get into the jet stream , which doesn't reliably travel along lines of constant latitude.

The propsition that forest fires inject enough heat into the atmosphere to matter at any scale larger than the extent of the fire itself is a comical missapprehension.

Australia and Indonesia have huge forest fires from time to time, and they don't mess up the local meteorology. Sweden's forests aren't anything like as extensive.

ow on the ground and on the sea surface during arctic summers these days, a nd bare water reflects a great deal less solar radiation than ice or snow.

attempts to explain every last warning about anthropgenic global warming as more of the same.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 1:23:30 AM UTC+2, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrot e:

e:

hem , particularly close to the Arctic Circle, which is warming up faster t han the rest of the world, but is isn't the first time that Sweden has had forest fires, and it's certainly not evidence that any kind of threshold ha s been crossed.

phere. It is wiser to look at population declines and extinction events amo ng the flora and fauna to get an idea of the disruption. Obviously somethin g is going on when we see lifeforms we know have been stabilized for millio ns of years start to disappear. Means of this and that and everything else be damned.

The last million years has seen of the order of ten ice-age to interglacial transitions - if you want the exact history you can get from ice core data .

The biosphere has regularly flipped between two more or less stable states.

The fact that we are moving the climate to something more like what prevail ed 20 millions years ago means that the biosphere is going to have to find a new adaption, which might not accomodate our current agricultural practic es, but isn't going to create any kind of mass extinction event, though it might produce a crash in the human population level - there are a lot more of us around than there used to be.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

Every time they put out a small one, afterwards they should clear the underbrush that would have burned, since the crew is already there.

Reply to
Tom Del Rosso

That would be a remarkably small fire. The Australian system is start small fires in winter, when they aren't likely to spread, and reduce the fire load for summer, when they spread like wild-fire, givien half a chance.

This wouldn't work for the Swedes since their forests tend to be snow-covered in winter.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.