In-House Sheet Metal?

OK, so not real happy today. I just found out I have to run R&D Dept for next few months. (This department is a total unorganized mess where I work.) I have been trying to avoid the responsibility for a few months now, but ra n out of ideas...

Anyway, we build a lot of one-off custom stuff.

Are there any tools out there (besides desktop CNC) that can cut and drill sheet metal and aluminum to 1/8" thickness (maybe even thinner). I'm askin g because although we have a small Chinese CNC, it runs some wacky PCODE or GCODE software that is either very limited, or incomprehensible by our pro duction staff, or both.

I really just need to find a simpler solution, even if it's just a manual X /Y table. Drill press and/or cutter. Most of what we do is rectangular, w ith fairly precise, small diameter holes (6-32 or so size).

Small production lots.

Plan-B: Find a GOOD easy-to-understand software for a CNC. Plan-C: Buy a real CNC, and hire someone who knows how to operate it. Plan-D: Laser cutter????

If we ever made 10 or more of the same product, we could outsource. But put your mind in the "constant prototype" mode, and you'll start to see my concern/aggravation. :) Thanks,

Reply to
mpm
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OK, so not real happy today. I just found out I have to run R&D Dept for next few months. (This department is a total unorganized mess where I work.) I have been trying to avoid the responsibility for a few months now, but ran out of ideas...

Anyway, we build a lot of one-off custom stuff.

Are there any tools out there (besides desktop CNC) that can cut and drill sheet metal and aluminum to 1/8" thickness (maybe even thinner). I'm asking because although we have a small Chinese CNC, it runs some wacky PCODE or GCODE software that is either very limited, or incomprehensible by our production staff, or both.

I really just need to find a simpler solution, even if it's just a manual X/Y table. Drill press and/or cutter. Most of what we do is rectangular, with fairly precise, small diameter holes (6-32 or so size).

Small production lots.

Plan-B: Find a GOOD easy-to-understand software for a CNC. Plan-C: Buy a real CNC, and hire someone who knows how to operate it. Plan-D: Laser cutter????

If we ever made 10 or more of the same product, we could outsource. But put your mind in the "constant prototype" mode, and you'll start to see my concern/aggravation. :) Thanks, =================================================================

They used MasterCAM in the machine shop at my last job, for some FADAL CNC mills and a couple of CNC lathes, seemed to be pretty easy to get stuff programmed up and running. First question is how big is the biggest piece you will need to work on, as that sets the table size, then see if you need to step up to a real mill or if your current tabletop can do the job. Then hire a good person and buy him the software he needs to get the job done efficiently. Go post this over in rec.crafts. metalworking; unfortunately it's over 60% political bs these days but some knowledgeable people still post there and are pretty starved for real questions so you should get some good advice. I'd post details on what machine you have now, what software you currently have, and how big a table you need, to get the most useful answers.

We did a fair amount of outside jobs, in quantities from one on up. We usually quoted qty 1, 10, and 100 or whatever, with the programming and machine setup spread over whatever they ordered. If we liked them we cut them a break on re-orders since we already had the programming :-).

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Regards, 
Carl Ijames
Reply to
Carl

ran out of ideas...

l sheet metal and aluminum to 1/8" thickness (maybe even thinner). I'm ask ing because although we have a small Chinese CNC, it runs some wacky PCODE or GCODE software that is either very limited, or incomprehensible by our p roduction staff, or both.

X/Y table. Drill press and/or cutter. Most of what we do is rectangular, with fairly precise, small diameter holes (6-32 or so size).

ee my concern/aggravation. :) Thanks,

In the 1980s Cambridge Instruments did a lot of their own sheet metal work, and had a big guillotine for cutting sheets to size (at funny angles), and some kind of bending machine. Holes in thin sheets were punched rather tha n drilled.

It all seemed to depend on one very clever guy (who drank rather more than he should have). I wasn't in direct contact with it but got an earful about the problems of using cheap display tubes - which were built for the TV in dustry in batches of 100,000 and changed from batch to batch to match real and imagined chances in popular taste - which meant that our display housin gs had to be easily altered to cope every time we got a new batch of displa ys.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

Oh-oh. It's difficult to justify expensive machines for prototype or custom work. If yo try to justify purchasing a new machine just for doing prototypes, the machine(s) will be either to expensive to justify, or AliExpress crap that will be difficult to keep running.

Everything runs GCODE. GCODE can be very powerful, very confusing, very buggy, or combinations of all the aforementioned. My guess(tm) is that your Chinese CNC something machine came with a manual with a literal translation of the original Chinese into something resembling English. I recently survive such an exercise. It was NOT fun.

Well, if you're going to cut sheet metal steel or aluminum, there are (in order of decreasing cost) water jet cutters, plasma cutters, CO2 laser cutters, 2 axis routers, and CNC controlled band saws. Each has their benefits and limitations. Since I don't know what you're making, I can't offer much in the way of cost/benefit analysis.

My guess(tm) is that if your tolerances are not too demanding, and you don't care about how long it takes to make the parts, you'll probably end up with a cheap 2 axis router or engraver: Much depends on the size of the bed, so please think about sending out the big stuff to a job shop and do the small stuff in house.

0.125" might be a bit thick for a small router and more suitable for a CNC vertical mill. My rule of thumb is that if you can bend the material, it can be done on a router or punch. If you can't bend it, use a vertical mill.

If your quantities are low, then maybe just a Rotex punch, a good size brake (for bending), and a shear (for cutting).

6-32 clearance hole is a #27 0.1440" (tight fit) or a #25 0.1495" (sloppy fit).

Precise diameter holes, precise position holes, or both? Both are fairly easy as long as you don't get ridiculous. I guess you don't want to drill rectangular holes. If the hole are standard sizes, make some dies for the Rotex punch.

Any manual machine can have a linear DRO attached to get accurate positioning: However, if you're going for 0.0001" accuracy, you'll need anti-backlash gears, a ball screw conversion kit, and a knowledgeable operator.

Making one or two can probably be best done by hand as the programming time can easily exceed the time it takes to make a few parts. However, if the part is complexicated and takes a long time to make by hand, CNC is probably the right answer.

I gotta ask... why do you want to do this in house? Fast delivery? Ease of making changes? Quality control? No in house CNC programming talent or software?

Does that mean constant changes to the prototype? If so, definitely go with CNC as that makes it very easy to make changes and very easy to switch to production quantities.

Drivel:

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

I have a HAAS tool room mill (TM1 bought new 10 years ago) for just this kind of work. I design stuff in Solidworks and hand translate to G-code - if you can program in any kind of way then G code is easy to understand.

If you have Solidworks or Inventor you can get a free add on for 2.5 axis CAM from Autodesk.

Biggest problem I have with sheet metal is holding the stuff down - might be worth investing in vacuum hold down system.

Last job I did was this:

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As you can see the second biggest problem on one-offs is how to do lettering etc, this one is printable vinyl which is really too soft. (note crinkles near power connector).

If anyone knows where you can buy printable self adhesive polycarbonate ......

MK

Reply to
Michael Kellett

t ran out of ideas...

ill sheet metal and aluminum to 1/8" thickness (maybe even thinner). I'm a sking because although we have a small Chinese CNC, it runs some wacky PCOD E or GCODE software that is either very limited, or incomprehensible by our production staff, or both.

al X/Y table. Drill press and/or cutter. Most of what we do is rectangula r, with fairly precise, small diameter holes (6-32 or so size).

see my concern/aggravation. :) Thanks,

+1, We farm out our panels and such. But for just a few prototypes I bang things out on the (manual) mill. We also have a shear and a small s heet metal brake. Heck for some stuff I scratch lines with my calipers bang the holes with a punch and use the drill press.

We use (made by our panel guy) photosensitive aluminum sheet with an adhesi ve back. Lot's on the web... I think our guy gets his stuff from 3-M, but not sure. If something like that would be of interest I could ask him.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

Argh. You're on/off switch is upside down. Very bad as someone is sure to get it backwards when they assume the switch uses the standard "up is on" layout.

The "serial" connector should be labeled "USB"

The 12V IEC power input connector should be labeled "12V ?A DC input" with the standard symbol for polarity. Something like this.

/---\ Pos ------O |--- Neg \---/ 12V DC 2A Input

A replaceable fuse might be useful.

You can probably find polycarbonate (Lexan) sheets without the adhesive backing. I'm not familiar with UK suppliers. For attaching such things to aluminum panels, I use spray adhesives such as Scotch Super 77 and 80. If you want to experiment, try some Scotch Spray Mount Artist's Adhesive (6065). There are videos on YouTube for how to use these effectively. The usual mistake is to use too much spray glue. Other spray adhesives:

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

tirsdag den 7. august 2018 kl. 02.33.05 UTC+2 skrev mpm:

ran out of ideas...

l sheet metal and aluminum to 1/8" thickness (maybe even thinner). I'm ask ing because although we have a small Chinese CNC, it runs some wacky PCODE or GCODE software that is either very limited, or incomprehensible by our p roduction staff, or both.

X/Y table. Drill press and/or cutter. Most of what we do is rectangular, with fairly precise, small diameter holes (6-32 or so size).

ee my concern/aggravation. :) Thanks,

pretty much all CNC machines speak g-code, but usually you get a program to write it for you

everything from the simplest like easel

formatting link

I use fusion360 (I think it cost $100/yr) if you are not a startup/hobbyist

formatting link

Reply to
Lasse Langwadt Christensen

If you were in Ohio, or a reasonable distance, I got the guy who can make t hat happen. An engineer fro the aerospace industry, made molds for turbine impellors n shit, many other things. Familiar with most of that software, h as Solidworks and some other really esoteric one he has to relicense every year. Retired at full age so he can make as much as he wants, you don't hav e to get him off the books which could be a pain in the ass.

He would not come and RUN the thing except for demo purposes, rather he wou ld set it up and teach a couple of (qualified) guys how to run it. Problem solved.

But CNC is so much more suited to production rather than one offs. I could just call him and ask him what type of software he recommends for your use. He told me many of them have free trials so you can test drive them. I was thinking about getting into it but dropped it because there is no market l ocally and I don't care to travel. But it was discussed.

Reply to
jurb6006

Thanks for the suggestions Jeff.

The USB port is labelled as "serial" because it's connected to an FTDI chip and will always appear to a PC as a COM port. The customer thinks of it as a serial port so the labelling suits them.

Re. the switch up/down - we (in he UK) tend to do on as down, but this box went to Texas so perhaps I should have toggled the switch.

formatting link

I'll try the spray stuff.

MK

Reply to
Michael Kellett

Well, that should work with a well trained customer that reads the documentation. I'm not sure how well that will work when someone tries to plug a laptop USB port into the "serial" port of your device.

I didn't know that. It's always been "up is on" in the US. Note that switch photos at: Most are "up is on" but there are a few the other way.

Be sure to also get some glue cleaner, solvent, or remover.

I just noticed something on your photo. The crinkles around the power connector seem to be from the connector rotating while you're tightening the nut on the back side. That will destroy any kind of finish. The power receptacle does not seem to have any way to grip the edge in order to prevent rotation. Therefore, I suggest you look for a different connector that does NOT spin when tightened. Plenty to choose from: Something like this perhaps: but with a much larger washer on the front side (to prevent the nut from crinckling the vinyl).

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

regular polycarbonate can be printed in a laser printer, but aerosol contact adhesive is potentially messy.

I wonder if you can stick kapton tape to release paper (the backing of regular labels) and run that through a laser printer... but if you don't want yellow that'd be a problem.

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     ?
Reply to
Jasen Betts

Cliff do this one:

FC681492, which has two screw holes, Lumberg make some very similar ones.

Lumberg have a nicer one, NEB 1, but it's only rated for 3A.

MK

Reply to
Michael Kellett

You seem to have this backwards. It *is* a USB port to a laptop or other c omputer. Notice the connector? It's a USB device connector (type B?). Yo u can't plug anything else into it unless you make your own cable. He is s aying it has a USB to serial chip inside the device and on the PC looks lik e a serial port to the software, so they call it a serial port to the custo mer.

a-switch

I can't think why anyone would want to do anything else. If it is a life s upport system or something where turning it of would be a big problem, then the switch should be the covered type. Even a switch oriented the other w ay can be accidentally turned on/off when raising the hand and catching the switch accidentally, I know I've done that. The idea of "gravity" determi ning the orientation of the switch is not intended to be for critical syste m. It's just a convenience/preference.

Rick C.

Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

I can visualize the computah illiterate customer looking at his laptop for the "serial" port. If it's intended to act like a USB port, connect to a USB cable, plug into a USB port on a laptop, then methinks it should be labeled "USB". However, that's not universal. Looking at the front of my desktop computah, I see two 3.5mm microphone and earphone jacks. They are not labeled "3.5mm" but rather icons signifying their function. On machines that have more front panel space, these are usually labeled "AUDIO" or "MIC and EARPHONE".

One of the problems with all controls is that while your hand is on the control, you can't see the labels. Therefore, such defacto standards such as "up is on", "clockwise is increase", "anti-clockwise is off", etc are rather important. In some cases, the operator may have vision problems and can't read the labels and therefore expects all the controls to work in a consistent manner.

It might be useful to look at industry standards for specific recommendations for action, font, font size, position of label, standard icons, etc. Also, look at front panels of equipment that is sold internationally, such as test equipment. I don't you'll find any with "down is on" switches.

Drivel: Incidentally, there's one defacto standard that I find rather amusing. On calculators, the keypad is laid out with zero at the bottom, and increasing numbers from bottom to top. On telephones, the zero is really a ten, and the numbers increase from top to bottom. This becomes an interesting problem on telephone test equipment front panels: If you look at the front panels of various RF signal generators, HP does their keypads like a calculator, while Rigol's keypad is like a telephone.

Of course, there are companies where compromise is not an option resulting in some radical keypad innovations:

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Google for Letraset transfers.

Always used those for one/of equipment. It survived years of use .

Protected the panel with transparent lacquer spray(from Letraset).

The 3M aluminum photosensitive sheet becomes ugly quite rapidly.

Reply to
Sjouke Burry

ut ran out of ideas...

rill sheet metal and aluminum to 1/8" thickness (maybe even thinner). I'm asking because although we have a small Chinese CNC, it runs some wacky PCO DE or GCODE software that is either very limited, or incomprehensible by ou r production staff, or both.

ual X/Y table. Drill press and/or cutter. Most of what we do is rectangul ar, with fairly precise, small diameter holes (6-32 or so size).

o see my concern/aggravation. :) Thanks,

s

Huh, I've not seen any problems. Is it when it's exposed to direct sunlight. (we keep all our stuff in the dark. :^)

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

ut ran out of ideas...

rill sheet metal and aluminum to 1/8" thickness (maybe even thinner). I'm asking because although we have a small Chinese CNC, it runs some wacky PCO DE or GCODE software that is either very limited, or incomprehensible by ou r production staff, or both.

ual X/Y table. Drill press and/or cutter. Most of what we do is rectangul ar, with fairly precise, small diameter holes (6-32 or so size).

o see my concern/aggravation. :) Thanks,

s

We used Letraset when I was a EMI Central Research. Done carefully, you can get quite neat lettering.

Clear polycarbonate sheet provides better protection than spray laquer, and if it gets scratched you can replace it easily.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

It comes off the backplane , when a bit of force hits hits an exposed side. The glue used(years ago) was not very strong. And the coating 3M spray paint was fragile. After a year or so flakes of paint started to disengage. But I have to admit, when new, it looked smart.

The front plates of aluminum we sand blasted, so you got a nice gray appearance. And the Letraset paint layer made a very strong bond on the blasted surface. A twenty year old computer connection bit,scanned with an Epson scanner:

Somebody added a bit of extra info with a color pencil though.....Grrrrrrr..

Reply to
Sjouke Burry

On Tue, 07 Aug 2018 10:42:35 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: (...)

There are also companies the specialize in making front panels. I've never dealt (directly) with any of them, but it might be an option: They have a YouTube channel:

(for making flight simulators)

etc...

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

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