Hearing aid

What about a pair of Mickey-mouse ears, pressed in tinplate, fitted like a pair of headphones? Should be able to manufacture those by the millions for $0.10/ea... even cheaper than an ear trumpet.

Reply to
Clifford Heath
Loading thread data ...

If the above were true, there would be nothing available for less than $70, which is clearly untrue. Amazon clearly disproves your hypothesis. Therefore, I have to call "Bullshit".

Reply to
krw

It's probably true for business producing high spec goods. But not for a lot of mfrs.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

It's all hand assembled at home by people in the 3rd world. Access to? Not much. Programming microcontrollers is not an option.

Goods are built mostly from e-waste. Only common parts are therefore practi cal. I generally design things so several different parts could do any one job. The 358 is ok because it's so common. Budget is around a cent per chip . It provides income for people that are otherwise financially stuck.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

Mickey mouse ears are no use. One needs a horn shape to go the passive route, and to work the horn needs to be large, at least a couple of feet long. That's not a practical product.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

But it's not something I've designed before. The musts:

can get that only run a few days on coin cells. Using AAA or AA is possible .

that would do this. The 386 has min 4-5v, Iq 4-8mA, hardly ideal, not tota lly ruling it out but don't love it.

0.3-0.5Ah at 8mA = 50 hours, and that's just I_q. No use at all.

low voltage amp design or with sliding class A.

Starting a design by looking at a very small subset of available technology is not likely to produce a useful design.

There are DSP chips intended specifically for uses like hearing aids. ADI makes a family called Sigma perhaps? I think TI has a very similar family. They are intended for apps based on digital audio data so the architectur e is designed to process a fixed algorithm on each sample, triggered to sta rt when the sample arrives. It's been a while so I don't recall the detail s other than they are very small, require little power and are under $10.

Rick C.

Tesla referral code -

formatting link

Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

d. But it's not something I've designed before. The musts:

u can get that only run a few days on coin cells. Using AAA or AA is possib le.

ne that would do this. The 386 has min 4-5v, Iq 4-8mA, hardly ideal, not to tally ruling it out but don't love it.

A 0.3-0.5Ah at 8mA = 50 hours, and that's just I_q. No use at all.

y low voltage amp design or with sliding class A.

gy is not likely to produce a useful design.

I makes a family called Sigma perhaps? I think TI has a very similar famil y. They are intended for apps based on digital audio data so the architect ure is designed to process a fixed algorithm on each sample, triggered to s tart when the sample arrives. It's been a while so I don't recall the deta ils other than they are very small, require little power and are under $10.

So totally unsuitable as explained multiple times already in this thread. I haven't checked the other thread yet and probably won't bother.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

They have it off to a fine art but I'd be surprised if they can do it for much less than $20 including all the overheads that go with it. They have far more sales automation than most manufacturing organisations.

$70 sounds to me more like the value of the goods an order ideally needs to contain to be worth the effort of processing it and shipping it to a customer (in a typical corporate environment). Some UK suppliers charge you extra for small orders (in fact *Amazon* does)

Back when I was involved in manufacturing computer systems there was always a computation of the economic ordering quantity/value for stock items and stuff urgently required by development had to fight damned hard to get past if the EEV had not been reached for that supplier.

You have to pay people to do all the jobs behind the scenes that allow the goods to get to where they are going in a timely fashion and safely.

--
Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

n

Amazon sells loads of things under $20. Think about it.

Again they wouldn't do it for a loss.

NT

a lot of mfrs.

Reply to
tabbypurr

Yes. But it costs them about $10 to pick, pack and ship every order so

I think they only get away with it because they are subsidised by the Chinese state for international postage. You wouldn't be able to send a

--
Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

I call to your attention that this was for "a US based factory" which was the situation at the time I did the calculation. I think I did that in the early 1980's. Today, as you note, things are rather different. As much of our economy is moved offshore, manufacture and handling costs are drastically reduced. If you need some entertainment value, find product made offshore, and price what it would cost you to perform all the necessary overhead in the US. I haven't done this so I can't offer an example, but I would guess a small empty box would cost $25 to $40. Incidentally, this is where Kickstarter ventures tend to fail. It's usually the little things, like warehousing costs, handling labor, warranty rework, taxes, office overhead, temporary labor, test equipment, office supplies, etc.

Simply announcing that you disagree with my assessment would have been sufficient. No need to engage in name calling and other school yard antics.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

This was early 1980's, well before Amazon. The calculation was actually fairly simple but admittedly not very accurate. I took the annual gross expenses for the company, and subtracted the difference between the beginning and ending inventory for the year. I then made a guess with the production manager as to the cost of labor and materials that actually went into the products. The remainder was all non-product overhead, which I then allocated by each product multiplied by its wholesale price. The resulting non-product overhead was $70 for the smallest products, and much more for the larger products. Notice that I'm wasn't concerned with profitability, only costs.

The specific product the inspired my calculation was a 2-tone audio generator used for testing SSB transmitters. It was a fairly simple affair and the pet project of the chief engineer. To insure success, he priced it at an absurdly low selling price. So, I calculated the minimum selling price assuming zero parts and labor costs. He was not happy with me after that.

We had a problem selling repair parts to the dealers. According to someone's pricing structure, a $0.15 transistor required five copies of the invoice and multiple layers of static protection and packing. The dealers were justifiably horrified with the prices. We solved the problem by collecting all the excess from the production line, putting in a baggie, and selling parts by the bag. That's what happens when the handling costs exceed the value of the product.

Agreed. It's really easy to lose track of such expenses when they are not tied directly to a product.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

e:

an

ey

it costs nowhere near that. You've not looked at their warehousing prices. And most sellers don't use Amazon's warehouse due to its costs. Big compani es don't do a large percentage of their sales at a loss, if you think they do it's time for business school.

ds

a
e

ge. Again they wouldn't do it for a loss.

makes no difference if it's free, a Chinese seller is still selling you a p

1st world costs are only relevant to 1st world sellers & buyers.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

We had a section called "customer care" which dealt with keeping customers happy and running. It became quite a successful profit centre in its own right by selling service contracts with the big instruments. Some smaller things were only worth selling in packs of 5 or 10.

One thing our guys were really good at was knowing the cost and profitability of every product line (at a level where sometimes really stupid cost cutting decisions would be made to hit the price point).

--
Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

Indeed. They make a surcharge on small would otherwise be unprofitable orders or incentivise the buyer to bulk up the order.

It depends a lot on how you cost the process of order fulfilment. If you are one man and a dog in shed somewhere doing it as a hobby it is completely different to running a massive warehouse and manufacturing operation with people running around with picking lists.

In the far east and inside China it is hard to tell what the true manufacturing costs actually are. My instinct is that for some of their stuff they do sell at a loss to obtain hard currency.

I always found Korean component pricing incomprehensible when I was based in Japan.

If you are making it in the third world then maybe you stand a chance. But I would be very wary trying to make any money on something that

If you are doing it to benefit the recipients then more power to your elbow but consider using a less thirsty opamp. If you are planning on getting rich with this project then think again before it is too late.

--
Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

il.

Less thirsty opamps with suitable Vcc & V_out range aren't available econom ically. The salvaged 358 does the job.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

Give them a kit instead of a finished product. You supply the parts, instructions, PCB, rechargeable battery, and not much else. They can share soldering irons, solder, creative packaging (e.g. match box), and felt tip pen labeling. Any village with talent will have someone who is better at soldering than the rest, so he or she gets to build hearing aids for the rest. My guess is about 10% will get screwed up during assembly, so for every dozen hearing aid kits, throw in a "spare". If you're stuck with SMT parts, use templates, preforms, supply PCB's with the major parts already attached (with super glue).

Are you expecting me to solve all these problems? Are you expecting to solve any of the aforementioned problems with a $5 hearing aid? I don't have an answer to solving such problems. I'm an electrical/electronic engineer, not a social engineer. I design products, not social and economic systems. This is YOUR project, not mine. If you're intent is to make some money for yourself and/or for your client, then we're speaking the same language. If your intent is reform the world on the basis of a $5 hearing aid, I can't help you or your client. If you give me one problem to solve, I can probably succeed. If you bury me in centuries of institutionalized poverty and economic disadvantages, I can do nothing.

In the past, when someone comes to me with the next great idea, the very first thing I ask is "what business are you in"? If they answer that they're out to save the world, reform society, and eliminate hunger on the planet, I politely suggest that they consult someone else. If they answer that they're out to make money, or leverage the profits into building the next great idea, I listen and try to help. I strongly suggest you ask yourself the same question. What business are you in?

I've never been there. What little traveling I've done was spent dodging bullets and trying to stay out of their jails. Even in enlightened Israel, I was nearly arrested twice for attempting to establish a cable TV system (details on request).

One thing I might add about 3rd world countries is that any person or company that is even marginally successful, instantly becomes the target of every kidnapper, extortionist, crook, tax collector, and corrupt government official. That's a rather powerful counter incentive to becoming successful, which might help explain some of the items on your list of social ills worth solving.

Actually, most 3rd world countries have an FDA or equivalent. Currently, they can afford to kill off some percentage of their population with badly designed or unsafe products. Should they ever achieve some semblance of civilization, their FDA might prove more useful.

Ideas are a dime a dozen. Talent and money to make the ideas happen are far more scarce and valuable. Best of luck with whatever it is you are building, selling, reforming, etc.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Defense contractors, sure. The point is that there are many (_many_) real products that come in very pretty boxes that are less than $70

*retail*. The assertion is pure bullshit.
Reply to
krw

You have no idea how we operate.

I'm pointing out the $3,000 approach is not realistic. That's why I talked about cheap & basic and an LM358.

No, what we do addresses that stuff already.

I doubt anyone could on that basis :)

You're asking someone who has spent 5 years doing this to ask themselves if they know an ass from an elbow.

It was an idea in 2013.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

Jeff,

Thank you for including the google search link. That is a big help.

I have been trying to learn how you can come up with such important information. So far, I have had no success. The key is your search string, which we do not know.

You could give us a huge help if you are using Firefox.

Nir Sofer gives numerous free apps for Firefox. One allows you to retrieve and save the History file:

formatting link

If you could include this with your links, we could see your search history and perhaps learn how you come up with such fabulous results.

All you have to do is clear your History file before beginning a search, then everything you do will be recorded and we can learn how you do it.

The key is the questions you ask. They are priceless.

Thanks!

Reply to
Steve Wilson

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.