Funny specification for CMOS input for microcontroller, unused inputs and slow transitions

Hey

So I was just browsing a datasheet for a RX130 microcontroller:

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It has a precaution note on page 115:

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So basically in point:

1: A slowly transitioning signal can cause the device to malfunction

2: An unused input (not terminated), can cause a CMOS input circuit to malfunction (device malfunction)

So, is this a sign that they have not used a schmitt trigger input, so they can have excessive current in the input stage due to cross conduction

Or what is going on? (I have never seen this specification for other devices)

Regards

Klaus

Reply to
Klaus Kragelund
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Sorry, it's page 114

Reply to
Klaus Kragelund

Horrible data sheet!

Sounds like standard CMOS inputs, no schmitts. There is no explicit suggestion of SCR latchup or high shoot-thru currents overheating the chip; the poorly-worded cautions seem to be about noise, although overheating is another hazard. The warnings are pretty much standard CMOS practice.

The data sheet doesn't mention allowable input pin current, which sometimes suggests a latchup hazard.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

Schmitt, or not, CMOS inputs should not be floated (unless they have built-in pull-ups or pull-downs) because they are high impedance and can wander anywhere due to board leakage. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
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     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

rx130.pdf

alfunction (device malfunction)

hey can have excessive current in the input stage due to cross conduction

ices)

Instead of current, they list the voltage:

Qoute (page 41)

Do not input signals or an I/O pull-up power supply to ports other than 5-V tolerant ports while the device is not powered. The current injection that results from input of such a signal or I/O pull- up may cause malfunction and the abnormal current that passes in the device at this time may cause degradation of internal element s. Even if ?0.3 to +6.5 V is input to 5-V tolerant ports, it will not cause problems such as damage to the MCU.

Unqoute

So, 0.3V over whatever diode they have in the input

Cheers

Klaus

Reply to
Klaus Kragelund

Sure, but it should not cause a malfunction. Some discrete schmitt triggers has a defined max cross conduction current, so in some cases it should be possible to leave it open, although it is not good engineering practice

Cheers

Klaus

Reply to
Klaus Kragelund

The question is, how much current can you force into an ESD diode of a powered chip, before it latches up and fries? Some parts specify that; be cautious if they don't.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

00_rx130.pdf

o malfunction (device malfunction)

o they can have excessive current in the input stage due to cross conductio n

devices)

5-V tolerant ports while the device is not powered.

ll-up may cause malfunction and the abnormal current that

ents.

ot cause problems such as damage to the MCU.

It's just another way to put it. 0.3V across the diode translates to a curr ent. I would rarther have the current specified, but the voltage is ok also , granted that the latchup state current really is temperature correlated

Cheers

Klaus

Reply to
Klaus Kragelund

00_rx130.pdf

o malfunction (device malfunction)

o they can have excessive current in the input stage due to cross conductio n

devices)

5-V tolerant ports while the device is not powered.

ll-up may cause malfunction and the abnormal current that

ents.

ot cause problems such as damage to the MCU.

see for example the LM2901, page 6, note 3:

formatting link

I love that comparator, cheap as s**** :-)

Cheers

Klaus

Reply to
Klaus Kragelund

Nasty part. If any input pin goes much more than -0.3, all four comparators can go crazy.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

j0100_rx130.pdf

on

t to malfunction (device malfunction)

, so they can have excessive current in the input stage due to cross conduc tion

er devices)

he

d

an 5-V tolerant ports while the device is not powered.

pull-up may cause malfunction and the abnormal current that

lements.

l not cause problems such as damage to the MCU.

Well, that's not a rare case. Almost all chips has SCR latchup in similar f ashion

Cheers

Klaus

Reply to
Klaus Kragelund

Lately I like MCP6567, dual CMOS comparator in MSOP8. RRI, open drain out, fast. It allows up to +-2 mA on inputs without weirdness.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

Sort of a modern 5V version of the LM319.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Reply to
pcdhobbs

te:

73ej0100_rx130.pdf

ction

cuit to malfunction (device malfunction)

put, so they can have excessive current in the input stage due to cross con duction

other devices)

cit

g the

h

dard

h

than 5-V tolerant ports while the device is not powered.

I/O pull-up may cause malfunction and the abnormal current that

l elements.

will not cause problems such as damage to the MCU.

f a

at;

r fashion

Check this out:

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Page 2 defines:

Qoute

Input Current (VIN

Reply to
Klaus Kragelund

Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Reply to
John Larkin

j0100_rx130.pdf

on

t to malfunction (device malfunction)

, so they can have excessive current in the input stage due to cross conduc tion

er devices)

he

d

an 5-V tolerant ports while the device is not powered.

pull-up may cause malfunction and the abnormal current that

lements.

l not cause problems such as damage to the MCU.

The LM139? (LM339 in dip?) That's always given me 'fits' with power on. I think I had to beef up the positive rail. (?) or RC delayed one rail?? A better behaved comparator would be nice.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

e:

3ej0100_rx130.pdf

tion

uit to malfunction (device malfunction)

ut, so they can have excessive current in the input stage due to cross cond uction

ther devices)

it

the

ard

than 5-V tolerant ports while the device is not powered.

/O pull-up may cause malfunction and the abnormal current that

elements.

ill not cause problems such as damage to the MCU.

a

t;

BITD National used LM1xx/2xx/3xx to refer to the same chip in military, ind ustrial/automotive, and commercial temperature grades, respectively.

So the LM139 was the cerdip/metal can version of the 339, with the 239 in t he middle. So we have the LM111/211/311 comparator, LM109/209/309 regulato r, and so on.

A nice Schottky rectifier from each supply to ground fixes a lot of those s orts of ills.

For a somewhat faster cheap OC comparator, I use a certain number of LM319s and 311s, but I generally don't use a lot of comparators these days.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Reply to
pcdhobbs

:

ote:

:
273ej0100_rx130.pdf

nction

rcuit to malfunction (device malfunction)

nput, so they can have excessive current in the input stage due to cross co nduction

other devices)

icit

ng the

gh

ndard

ch

r than 5-V tolerant ports while the device is not powered.

I/O pull-up may cause malfunction and the abnormal current that

al elements.

will not cause problems such as damage to the MCU.

of a

hat;

ndustrial/automotive, and commercial temperature grades, respectively.

the middle. So we have the LM111/211/311 comparator, LM109/209/309 regula tor, and so on.

sorts of ills.

9s and 311s, but I generally don't use a lot of comparators these days.

I'll try a Schottky, (is a 1N5711 nice? or too small?) (I've often hung a cap on the output of the '399 to slow it down. Speed-wise.)

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

Well, consider something that's not 40 years old.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

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