Favourite parts with off-label uses?

James,

What exactly is the stuff that Americans call lacquer? That's not a term that has a single meaning here.

I tried things like that but they were too slippery - bits of toner just fell off before getting transferred. I'm using toner transfer paper bought for the purpose.

That could be messy.

CH

A nice refurb 2300DTN is the ticket.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

I'm pretty sure you could look it up easily, but it's a sealant made from secretions of insects "lac". Think of it as varnish.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of it. It's very old and not at all a local term. I believe these days it is more a class of sealants than specifically the original one made from insects.

Clifford Heath wrote in news:128kG.138901$ snipped-for-privacy@fx09.iad:

Lacquer *was* the base vehicle for automotive paints and many things here in the coatings industry. Automotives switched to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Hard to buy lacquer based paints at the auto parts store. Same as with Freon, or chlorofluorocarbon based coolants.

But PCB conformal coatings are likely also no longer lacquer based if they ever were. (probably some worse compounds)

I think he must be using the term colloquially. I mean he does refer to a coating but is using the term lacquer as a generic term related to coatings.

Same as with "varnish". There are other than the coatings based definitions with that one too. But real varnish is still used in transformer vacuum encapsulation/moisture barrier/seal.

secretions of insects "lac". Think of it as varnish.

cal term. I believe these days it is more a class of sealants than specifi cally the original one made from insects.

lacquer can be all kinds of things, the stuff make from insects is shellac

And I get hits on a dozen different kinds of things. Acrylic, shellac, etc. So I asked James what he meant.

It doesn't matter what I think of it as. If I wat to do what James did, it matters what *he* thinks of it as.

I've done French polish, using traditional shellac. That's not what James meant... is it?

Exactly my point. I cannot apply "a class of sealants" I need to apply a specific sealant.

And I get hits on a dozen different kinds of things. Acrylic, shellac, etc. So I asked James what he meant.

It doesn't matter what I think of it as. If I wat to do what James did, it matters what *he* thinks of it as.

I've done French polish, using traditional shellac. That's not what James meant... is it?

Exactly my point. I cannot apply "a class of sealants" I need to apply a specific sealant.

In other words, everything about your post illustrates the complete lack of comprehension that characterises all your posts.

CH

erm

t as varnish.

You didn't ask what James specifically was referring to. You asked, "What exactly is the stuff that Americans call lacquer?"

local term.

I can't say. I'm not James. I simply answered the question you asked.

the original one made from insects.

Indeed. You should ask James what he has used, not "What exactly is the st uff that Americans call lacquer?"

Your post shows how you tend to blame your shortcomings on others. I simply answered the question you asked.

You are welcome.

A hint here. A message that starts with sentence that looks like "James, ....?" is probably a question for James to answer, that only he can answer, and you should STFU unless it's apparent he's not going to.

A question that says "I know what I think X is, but what do *you* mean by it" can only be answered by the person being addressed.

The same word can mean different things to different people or in different contexts.

These are things that we learn in kindergarten. But apparently you didn't graduate, because these are errors that you make *repeatedly*. I certainly find it difficult to image a high school that might have let you graduate.

CH

term

t as varnish.

a local term.

the original one made from insects.

ck

imply answered the question you asked.

I'm not going to debate this silly issue ad nauseam. You asked a question. I answered the question you asked. If you don't like that why do you con tinue to keep debating it? This isn't a room of people where I butted into a conversation. All you needed to do was ignore the post you didn't like. Instead you try to turn it into a flame war.

You seem to be rather sensitive for discussing topics in a public forum. S orry I bothered you.

I'm not completely sure. I believe it might be shellac, made from actual shells of actual lac bugs? The important property here is that it's alcohol-soluble. You might be able to vet local products by checking the clean-up solvents spec'd.

This is what I tried & recommend --

I recommend white, as contrasting brilliantly with the black toner.

It's easily removed with 90% isopropyl alcohol, leaving printer toner completely unaffected. Toner scoffs at IPA.

I had that experience early on, years ago. But the current label- backing type paper didn't have that problem. It's truly a godsend; no more rubbing, soaking and peeling, hoping the toner sticks.

Transferring to a lacquer-coated board might be easier. The lacquer is infinitely grabbier than even roughed up copper.

Some YouTubers make it look easy, but all I managed was a smeary mess.

Cheers, James Arthur

LACQUER I found the technical data sheet, available on this page:

The operative info from that .PDF: Resin Type: Acrylic Lacquer Pigment Type: Proprietary Solvents: Acetone, Methyl Ethyl Ketone, Toluene

It doesn't list alcohol as a solvent, but 90% IPA works like a beast.

The safety data sheet (linked on the above webpage) looks useful--

It lists a bit of naptha in its solvent-cocktail.

FORMULA CHANGE Oh dear. I see the video's author has added a note--

UPDATE: apparently Rustoleum has changed the formulation of their lacquer and it no longer dissolves in alcohol!!! The last 2 cans i bought have been extremely difficult to work with, which might explain some of the difficulty some of you were having duplicating my results. I will update further with a substitute transfer base soon. Thanks!

Rats. Maybe I got a lucky canful before the change? But you'll know what to look for--shellac / lacquer / solubility in alcohol.

Alternate: Acrylic floor wax strips with ammonia--I might explore that some time, base-coating the board with acrylic instead of lacquer. (Stinky, though.)

BACKING PAPER This gent illustrates my joyous experience printing onto backing paper, and the ease of transfer--the toner just comes right off, eliminating a wet step. He uses the paper he peels off Arlon vinyl.

These are the labels whose baking paper is salvaged and used by the gentleman in the first of those YouTubes above--

Best PRINT half-sheet labels (1/2 page-sized labels)

The big lure of backing paper to me was eliminating the process variations of thermally transferring toner to copper from paper. The backing paper goes a long way toward accomplishing that. I still have trouble getting adhesion to bare copper.

Overall, this ability to use two different resist coatings (toner and lacquer) that dissolve in different solvents feels full of promise & possibilities...

Cheers, James Arthur

I thought it was the shells too, but it's a secretion they leave on tree br anches. So I guess they don't kill the bugs but harvest their secretions m ore like silkworms.

It needs to be a very thin, even layer. Otherwise there is potential of th e alcohol being absorbed through the layer of lacquer underneath thin trace s allowing the toner to lift while removing the lacquer. I haven't tried t his so I don't know if it is a real problem or just a potential one.

I'm picturing circuit boards being coated while spinning. I'm not sure if this was photoresist or what. It's been a long time since I even thought o f hand etching circuit boards.

Did you have a way of laying the paper on the board and removing it without it moving sideways? It does seem like a problem.

Aren't there pretty inexpensive ways of getting prototype quantities of PWB s made? I recall several outfits that panelize multiple designs into one b atch so you can order a small number of boards at not a high price.

You're really stretching the range limit of my crystal ball. It's midnight and I feel like the walking dead, but I'll give it a try. My crystal ball tells me it's either a burnt fuser sleeve or melted plastic toner on the fuser or transfer rollers. Some detail:

Since the "blotchy" pattern is not at even intervals, my guess(tm) is that there is damage to either the imaging drum, transfer roller, toner cartridge, scrubber, or fuser assembly. In other words, almost everything along the paper path. I would guess(tm) that the light areas look like the toner is not sticking to the paper, which suggests that the paper might be "lumpy", not very flat, or splattered with something greasy. Try different paper and a different toner cart. Look inside (though the back door) at the various rollers and transfer film in the fuser assembly. If you see patches of partially melted toner all over the rollers, that might be the problem. Refurbishing and replacing the fuser in the HP LaserJet 2055 printer is not easy but can be done. You can try to scrape off any accumulated melted toner from the rollers, sleeve, or fuser, but the chances of damaging these are high. If you leave a dent or scratch where you scraped off the melted toner, the fuser will not heat the area sufficient, resulting in the toner not sticking, which can create similar print quality issues. Also, inspect the fuser film sleeve for burnt areas, which can cause similar problems.

Refurbished fuser assembly:

Maintenance kit (if you have feed problems):

Videos on how to replace the fuser assembly:

Replacement fuser sleeve:

Disclaimer: This is only a guess(tm).

Acrylic, thanks. I had no idea that IPA would attack it but not lift toner. That's good to know, I'll give it a try. I'll have to find suitable local products, as the ones you mention don't ship to Australia.

I could try shellac, I have some flakes here. It's intrinsically more variable though, being a natural product; the water content and age are factors in using it for French polish. And it doesn't come in a convenient spray can.

The paper I use has a significant starch (I think) content, and wets really quickly - like 10 seconds before it comes off cleanly. The only other relevant factor is how much it slows down the heat transfer in the laminator; even after proper pre-warming I pass it through 2 or 3 times.

Good to know.

Well, after all, this is only for Saturday afternoon prototyping at RF. Other prototypes can be on assorted grid boards that don't provide a ground plane, and anything more permanent can go through one of the many quick-turn board houses.

A friend uses a modified record-player to spin photoresist onto boards, and makes double-sided boards quite frequently, but the process took a lot of work to perfect.

There's something about knocking up a schematic in Kicad, laying it on a board, and soldering it up an hour after you started. Sometimes the magic flows and you want to try something *now*.

Clifford Heath.

Oh wow, quite a lot of things could be the problem. I better have a good look inside before trying another cartridge.

Thanks,

CH

WBs made? I recall several outfits that panelize multiple designs into one batch so you can order a small number of boards at not a high price.

places like jlcpcb etc. will do 5x 100*100mm dual sided, with silk,mask etc . so vastly better than anything you can make at home, for $5 the shipping mi ght be $10 these days

PWBs made? I recall several outfits that panelize multiple designs into o ne batch so you can order a small number of boards at not a high price.

tc.

might

Someone is asking me to layout a board that is a bit larger than my usual s ize range and I was concerned the board cost might be getting up there so I checked with these guys. Not bad at all. But while exploring options I n oticed some oddities.

When ENIG is selected, not only do they charge $16.00 for 'surface finish', but they add another $9 to the 'board' cost. So it's really $25 extra. S ame with 2 oz copper weight. Odd.

Then when I checked the 1 layer price vs. the two layer price they lower th e 'board' price just a bit less than $4, then add $4 to the 'engineering fe e' so the total is a actually a little bit more!

The price goes up a lot with layers. They don't add much to the "board" fe e, but the "engineering fee" goes up a LOT. I guess that's the labor and t he board fee is the material.

But the prices are amazing! I had no idea.

Their web page is very clear and seems to cover almost every option. I don 't see a way to specify the stackup as in layer thickness. They talk about fiducials being made as holes in the PWB either half way through or all th e way through. Wouldn't this just be another drill hole? Or is this made with a higher accuracy?

Checking another board that is pretty small but 6 layer starts to get prett y expensive by the time I add in the smaller hole size and ENIG it's pushin g toward $200. Still not bad really.