excellent political rant

Den torsdag den 25. februar 2016 kl. 17.58.19 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

Mike Rowe of discovery channels "dirty jobs" has been talking about it for years.

and afaict most of the "abandoned losers" are boys that don't fit in the current education system

-Lasse

Not everyone is cut out for a college "education" or wants to be. My neighbor directly across the street is an electrician and pulls in big bucks.

This actor is a strong proponent of education in the trades...

The perpetual problem though is that class of males who want to be bums. My father-in-law, who ran a machine shop, continually complained that he couldn't find anyone to hire who could read a blueprint. ...Jim Thompson

This is because our culture doesn't actually value anything beyond affirmation of status.

Also also - back in the day, tradesmen were often highly (self) educated, but they were still tradesmen.

IMO, the use of the Stanford-Binet in WWII to figure out who runs the radio was the beginning of this foolishness. The rest is nonsense on stilts.

We have no idea what intelligence really is. This is at a *PROFOUND* level; read Chomsky's papers.

Universities know what is good for them, and this plan is not that. The kids are grist for the mill. They are not the customer.

Wait'll you see what they do to PhD kids these days.

The only reliable PhD now is applied math, if you can wrangle the networking to go into finance.

You're as arrogant and ignorant as the people she complains about if you th ink vocational education should be a safety net for students who fail colle ge. Vocational education and the trades are very detailed oriented and requ ire intelligence, unless you want to be just a jobsite helper. The people w ho fail college these days are fundamentally good for nothing, and they joi n the same people who fail voc-ed..

Democrat, Republican - does it actually matter?

Nope. They all imply to the masses that there _is_ such a thing as a free lunch. ...Jim Thompson

AFAIK only three contenders have said the same, that there is no free lunch. Paul, Bush and Trump. Now there is only Trump ...

Vocational education and trades do require intelligence, but the process of learning vocational skills is more immediately rewarding than that of acqu iring academic skills.

A lot of people who can't stay motivated at a university could stay motivat ed by vocational training, where there's a lot more immediate reinforcement .

It's not a route that every college drop-out would do well to follow, but s pending at year or more at a university should mean that somebody - in addi tion to the student dropping out - has a better of idea of what the student might be good for after they've dropped out.

Not every student would benefit from being steered into vocational training or an "associate track" whatever that might be, but none of this seems to be happening at the moment.

Sadly, Jim thinks that what Bernie Sanders is advocating is loads of free l unches. What Bernie Sanders think he's advocating is more investment - by s ociety as a whole - in the health and education of the working class.

Jim correctly sees that as more taxes coming out of his pocket, which he in correctly sees as intended to be spent on "free lunches". In reality it's g oing to be invested in better educational, better health care and better we lfare, which pays off as more productive, better paid workers who are the b etter-off consumers in a larger economy.

It works for Scandinavia and Germany, but every right-wing nit-wit will tel l you it couldn't possibly work that way in the "more socially diverse" USA .

Of course the USA is - today - more socially diverse than Germany and Scand inavia because those countries started spending more on their working class es a couple of generations ago, but the concept of "American peculiarity" s aves right-wing nit-wits from having to think or know about the rest of the world, and is correspondingly popular.

Joerg should know that what Bernie Sanders is peddling isn't any kind of "f ree lunch". In as far as Scandinavian and German socialism involves "free l unches", Joerg got the benefit of them when he was growing up, and should b e aware that the government spending involved now looks more like an inspir ed investment, rather than any kind of vote-buying.

It is hard to read through all the extreme journalism to find the actual topic. There is so much biased diatribe like, "faculties nationwide have fatally lost power and are barraged by dictatorial directives from tin-eared campus bureaucrats enforcing a labyrinth of intrusive government regulations." I do like the alliteration of "dictatorial directives", it has a nice ring to it. Much of the article is just babbling about things like, "rah-rah campus sports ethos". Really? That is the big problem with colleges?

There is a good reason to encourage students to pursue college, so they can get well paying jobs. Not just so they do well, but to fill the jobs that are available so we don't need to hire foreign workers (can you say H-1B). The jobs you can fill with high school graduates are becoming fewer and fewer. Sure there are alternatives to college such as vocational schools, but they aren't any cheaper. I know someone who was over $40,000 in debt to take a 2 year course in auto mechanics.

I didn't have this problem. I put myself through school by working summers. That would be impossible these days with the cost of tuition.

Like many of our problems, this is a problem with no easy solutions. But letting schools get more and more expensive relative to the earnings you can expect is not the best solution.

BTW, I'm pretty sure that no one in education says, "everyone should go to college". That's just JL malarkey.

But Trump says there is a free wall coming!

u >think vocational education should be a safety net for students who fail

re >intelligence, unless you want to be just a jobsite helper. The people w ho fail college these days are fundamentally good for nothing, and they joi n the same people who fail voc-ed..

of learning vocational skills is more immediately rewarding than that of ac quiring academic skills.

ated by vocational training, where there's a lot more immediate reinforceme nt.

spending at year or more at a university should mean that somebody - in ad dition to the student dropping out - has a better of idea of what the stude nt might be good for after they've dropped out.

ng or an "associate track" whatever that might be, but none of this seems t o be happening at the moment.

Associate track means a two year program of study leading to an Associates Degree. Most of the technology degrees, mechanical, chemical, electrical, m edical laboratory, fire science, horticultural/agricultural, computer netwo rks, nursing, etc...endless list, are two year associate degrees. The more traditional vocational programs like carpentry, plumbing, welding, electric ian training, drafting, masonry...etc...award certificates, not degrees. Qu ite a few of these fields require some sort of final certification testing at the national level to obtain employment or be licensed to work if requir ed at the local level.At any rate, many of these programs provide the backb one workers for industry and you don't want them to be a bunch of dropouts who couldn't hack the remedial courses of a four year college or even to be perceived as such.

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you > > > think vocational education should be a safety net for students wh o fail

uire > > >intelligence, unless you want to be just a jobsite helper. The pe ople who > > >fail college these days are fundamentally good for nothing, a nd they join > > >the same people who fail voc-ed..

s of learning vocational skills is more immediately rewarding than that of acquiring academic skills.

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ning > > or an "associate track" whatever that might be, but none of this s eems to

s Degree. Most of the technology degrees, mechanical, chemical, electrical, medical laboratory, fire science, horticultural/agricultural, computer net works, nursing, etc...endless list, are two year associate degrees. The mor e traditional vocational programs like carpentry, plumbing, welding, electr ician training, drafting, masonry...etc...award certificates, not degrees. Quite a few of these fields require some sort of final certification testin g at the national level to obtain employment or be licensed to work if requ ired at the local level.At any rate, many of these programs provide the bac kbone workers for industry and you don't want them to be a bunch of dropout s who couldn't hack the remedial courses of a four year college or even to be perceived as such.

People drop out of university level tertiary education for a whole variety of reasons. Lumping them together as "a bunch of dropouts" isn't a producti ve point of view.

One truly brilliant friend of mine didn't do well a university because he k ept on getting fascinated by aspects of the stuff he was studying that he d idn't need to know to pass his exams. He was brilliant enough to get a degr ee eventually - though it took him quite a while - and he eventually invent ed and patented a better confocal microscope and - somewhat later - got a f ew million dollars for it.

We need to know a lot more about individual students - what they might be g ood at and what kind of scheme of instruction might best develop their skil ls in the areas where they look promising.

If a student is lucky enough to be able to make through university, they ca n learn a lot about what they might be good at in the process, but 30% neve r make it - or that seems to be the Australian figure

As an analysis of what's going on, this strikes me as total rubbish, but it does provide the raw data.

Fred, you are such a sweetie. What is your degree in?

think vocational education should be a safety net for students who fail co llege. Vocational education and the trades are very detailed oriented and r equire intelligence, unless you want to be just a jobsite helper. The peopl e who fail college these days are fundamentally good for nothing, and they join the same people who fail voc-ed..

Which one? As a matter of fact you're so out of touch that you failed to re alize most state community college/university systems now cooperate so that the community college students are guaranteed full credit for their work a t the university level. This is because the community college students are continuing at the university level in greater numbers.

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f you > > > think vocational education should be a safety net for students who fail

equire > > >intelligence, unless you want to be just a jobsite helper. The people who > > >fail college these days are fundamentally good for nothing, and they join > > >the same people who fail voc-ed..

ess of learning vocational skills is more immediately rewarding than that o f acquiring academic skills.

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aining > > or an "associate track" whatever that might be, but none of this seems to

tes Degree. Most of the technology degrees, mechanical, chemical, electrica l, medical laboratory, fire science, horticultural/agricultural, computer n etworks, nursing, etc...endless list, are two year associate degrees. The m ore traditional vocational programs like carpentry, plumbing, welding, elec trician training, drafting, masonry...etc...award certificates, not degrees . Quite a few of these fields require some sort of final certification test ing at the national level to obtain employment or be licensed to work if re quired at the local level.At any rate, many of these programs provide the b ackbone workers for industry and you don't want them to be a bunch of dropo uts who couldn't hack the remedial courses of a four year college or even t o be perceived as such.

y of reasons. Lumping them together as "a bunch of dropouts" isn't a produc tive point of view.

The U.S. has quite a few schools with a completion rate of only 5% at the s ix year mark. Not sure what's going on with six years, maybe it's when even the Feds pull the plug on their tuition assistance grants...I'm pretty sur e almost all those people are dregs not fit to even work in the fast food i ndustry, and they're definitely worthless for the trades.

kept on getting fascinated by aspects of the stuff he was studying that he didn't need to know to pass his exams. He was brilliant enough to get a de gree eventually - though it took him quite a while - and he eventually inve nted and patented a better confocal microscope and - somewhat later - got a few million dollars for it.

That's about as an atypical example as you can get...

good at and what kind of scheme of instruction might best develop their sk ills in the areas where they look promising.

can learn a lot about what they might be good at in the process, but 30% ne ver make it - or that seems to be the Australian figure

it does provide the raw data.

In the U.S. I'm pretty sure most of the failures are because the students g ot caught up in partying and just blew their opportunity.. that and they ne ver bothered to look for anything of interest. If you're not even intereste d in the subject matter then what's there to motivate you?

How many college degrees do you have? 2? 1? 0?

That's the opposite direction from what I was suggesting. I know that many colleges have "washout courses" like freshmen chemistry to weed out "undesirables". Pushing all high school students into college tracks is cruel and inefficient. It adds to the class structure of America.

One side effect is that most college grads take fluff courses and come out no more employable than when they started. Sure, Starbucks will pick a Sociology graduate over a non-grad, but that just makes college into a 4-year endurance test.

I interview EE grads who don't understand electricity.

Being unsuited to the rituals and deceit of getting a college degree does not make those 95% "dregs." Some just aren't intelligent enough, which is not a justification for contempt. Some of us were lucky to be born smart, some weren't. 5000 years ago, we might have been the wimpy losers. Too many intelligent people think their IQ is a virtue.

Sometimes I think you are just plain mean. Or, more charitably, just miserably unhappy.

A few of the richest people in the world are dropouts.

What are you interested in?