We are writing a proposal for a local government trying to facilitate fair pricing of charging, probably with a ChargePoint fast charger. ChargePoint allows them to set pricing. By the way, Evgo charge $0.15/min (member) and $0.20/min (non-member). Some charge as much as $0.39/min. That's legal highway robbery.
Evgo's pricing structure is unfair to older vehicles. Especially for older vehicles like (around 300,000) Leaf, cost equivalence is close to $9/gal gasoline when charging around 70% to 90% State Of Charge (SOC).
Even for reduced membership cost of 15 cents per minute:
I think this is a situation where "let the market decide" works pretty good. I see a bunch of Evgo chargers with silly rates like that nobody uses 'em. How do they make money charging those rates? Doesn't make sense in a plug-in hybrid at least to use that over gas
None of the public chargers I use regularly charge anything for the charge itself. The chargers I like at the supermarket and local Starbucks give you a premium parking spot and 3 hours of charging time prior to billing you anything in exchange for you patronizing their fine establishment and spending money there so that's what I do.
There are some town-owned chargers that charge a nominal fee for the parking itself like $1/hr I use sometimes. There's a charger I use in the commuter rail station that's free because damn you're already paying $15/24 period or part thereof, non-pro rated, for parking there.
There's a good-sized ChargePoint station at the local utility company offices near my girlfriend's place in Providence the charge is free 24/7 as a public service/push their product like a drug dealer kind of situation.
This works fine for me I almost never pay for charge in the wild to fill the rather small battery-pack my vehicle has, you really don't have to as things are in my area already.
ChargePoint lets the property owner decides. They can be reasonable and/or not. I have seen $0.25/min ChargePoint as well. Evgo is company owned, f ixed at $0.15/min for members. But that's still quite expensive at high SO C. They can do that when they are the only game in town (or highway) withi n 30 miles.
People don't understand the game until i show them the numbers. So, please check my numbers. They are good faith fair estimates.
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:53:45 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wr ote:
The line that is labeled "Tesla Supercharger" doesn't seem right. It doesn 't seem to be a direct label on that line rather some sort of reference or equivalence. In the real world the rates charged at Superchargers vary by state and even within a state. But I think you are listing Level 2 chargin g, right?
In general your chart is not really clear. I don't understand why on a lin e where the SoC is 40% the charging current is 70 amps. I realize there is a SoC dependency of the maximum charge rate, but that relationship is depe ndent on the car and even the particular battery. I also don't understand why you list kWh. If it is kW instead, the number paired with the amps see ms to imply 400 volt charging. Is this level 3, DC fast charging??? My ca r will charge at 120 kW from 10% to 50% where it starts ramping down to a f airly low charge rate by 90% SoC.
I don't agree with Bitrex that the rates should be set by the "free market" . In many ways charging facilities are presently more like utilities with little competition. Of course, that may change. At one time most jurisdic tions regulated the pricing by the cable TV franchises that the local juris dictions gave monopolies to. They allow competition to set the price now t hat there is competition. While you may want to "protect" the consumer, it is also in the best interest of consumers for the market to grow and devel op. So perhaps a "fair" rate of $0.15 per kWh is not high enough to allow a reasonable profit. $0.05 a minute while charging might be a bit low as w ell. Tesla has a $0.50 per minute idle fee after your charging is complete and the station is half full. $1.00 a minute if the chargers are full alt hough that is for a different purpose. If I was in the habit of paying for charging I think I would be willing to pay double the rates you are sugges ting.
I like getting my charging for free which many locations provide... I suspe ct because the bottom line is the cost is not very much in the grand scheme of running a business. Rather than encouraging commercial installations, perhaps the encouragement of vendor provided charging would be as useful if not more so. Also it is important for jurisdictions to pass reasonable la ws allowing businesses to make the charger parking either EV only or a shor t time limit for non-EV parking, enforceable by the same authority that enf orces other parking violations.
In the short term it is important to encourage both the adoption of EVs as well as the growth of the EV charging network.
Rick C.
- Get 6 months of free supercharging - Tesla referral code -
sn't seem to be a direct label on that line rather some sort of reference o r equivalence. In the real world the rates charged at Superchargers vary b y state and even within a state. But I think you are listing Level 2 charg ing, right?
Tesla supercharger costs around $0.25/KWH in the area, between $0.15/KWH in San Mateo (run by solar) and $0.30/KWH in San Francisco (run by politician ).
ine where the SoC is 40% the charging current is 70 amps. I realize there is a SoC dependency of the maximum charge rate, but that relationship is de pendent on the car and even the particular battery.
This is for charging 24KWH Nissan Leaf as stated in the article.
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:58:14 PM UTC-8, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wr ote:
oesn't seem to be a direct label on that line rather some sort of reference or equivalence. In the real world the rates charged at Superchargers vary by state and even within a state. But I think you are listing Level 2 cha rging, right?
in San Mateo (run by solar) and $0.30/KWH in San Francisco (run by politici an).
line where the SoC is 40% the charging current is 70 amps. I realize ther e is a SoC dependency of the maximum charge rate, but that relationship is dependent on the car and even the particular battery.
OK, third column should be in KW and Tesla rate should be below SF. Table looks better in fix-pitch font.
You know me I think the reason the market will work here is that the potential gougers have the "model" wrong. If they think they're gonna run some "last chance gas!" on the highway-model or set up shop like they're the only gas station in town, like EVs are just like ICE cars except have a battery-tank instead of a gas tank, fat chance of that, there are almost always other options, even a 120 volt wall socket (albeit a rather slow one) and IMO people will always find other options vs. getting screwed if they're available, except in a dire emergency.
Can't really do that with significant quantities of hydrocarbons in tanks. By comparison the barriers to entry on a charging station is relatively low. Parking lots and power lines are everywhere.
If a highway or remotely-located charging station starts getting quite popular and trying to gouge then you can have Donnie's Discount Charging up and running across the street in a lot less time than a competing gas station. Or even in the same parking lot!
For the moment looks like the prices are oriented to gouge the wealthy Tesla owners who definitely don't buy $50k, $80k, or $100k vehicles to save money on gas. Yeah it kinda sucks for people like me with $26k EVs but what ya gonna do most of us charge our modest packs at home most of the time anyway.
It's hard to get too miffed about the quite wealthy having to pay high rates for their toys or fight for legislation to protect 'em. Dawww poor kiddos.
It'll change in time maybe if/when Tesla releases a 35k electic car and it becomes popular with the hoi polloi.
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 6:58:14 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wr ote:
oesn't seem to be a direct label on that line rather some sort of reference or equivalence. In the real world the rates charged at Superchargers vary by state and even within a state. But I think you are listing Level 2 cha rging, right?
in San Mateo (run by solar) and $0.30/KWH in San Francisco (run by politici an).
line where the SoC is 40% the charging current is 70 amps. I realize ther e is a SoC dependency of the maximum charge rate, but that relationship is dependent on the car and even the particular battery.
So this chart is for starting at the SoC in the first column and charging u p to 100%? So the numbers are the amount of total charge and the associate d rates and costs?
I'm not sure the dollars per gal is accurate. Since you are proposing a ti me related cost, you need to know the total time for charging at each start ing point. The rate you provide doesn't persist for the entire charging se ssion I'm pretty sure. In fact, the charge for each amount of charging sta rting at 90% would be a base level for the next charging increment.
But then I'm still not sure if you are talking about level 3 or level 2 cha rging.
Rick C.
Get 6 months of free supercharging + Tesla referral code -
Pre 2016 Leaf had DC fast charging as an option on top trimline the others Level 2 topping out at 6.6kW, the later models have both on all trim lines.
AFAIK EVGo has kiosks with multiple connectors and they charge one rate by the minute for whichever you do, which makes the Tesla drivers (and other more modern EV drivers) happy when they fill up on the quick thru the J1772 adapter, yay it ends up being somewhat cheaper than gas, but screws people stuck with a Level 2 charge rate.
By setting the pricing that way EVGo seems to be implicitly saying to people with Level 2 charging only "Sorry but we don't want your business." I'd imagine the people setting the rates at corporate could do that arithmetic as well and they is what they is, so...
Okay fair enough I'll take it elsewhere, I drive right by their habitually unused charge stations around here, fortunately for me there are other options and sorry it's not that way where you are yet, hopefully soon.
That is to say I think they set them that way to gouge wealthy Tesla owners who are like "Yay $2 'gas'" that may be their business model at the moment.
I doubt that's a forever business model but if gouging the wealthy requires shutting out the less well-to-do then they'll do that, the wealthy are the people with most of the money after all and gouging them makes sense, particularly if they don't really feel they're being gouged that bad anyway.
It's for ChatDeMode fast charging. At 90% SOC, the current drop to around 20A or around 8KW. Since it takes around 300 WattHour per mile, 8000 Watts per hour is 133 watts per minute or
2.5 minutes per mile. At $0.15 per min, it's around $0.40 per mile. Gasoline costs around $0.13 per mile. So, Evgo Charging is close to 3x or $9/gal gas.
Tesla and Bolt can charge cheaper. So, Leafs are subsiding them.
It sounds like this is in San Francisco area, the price is determined by the fact they figure everyone using an EV charger there is loaded anyway and nobody really cares what car charging costs exactly
oesn't seem to be a direct label on that line rather some sort of reference or equivalence. In the real world the rates charged at Superchargers vary by state and even within a state. But I think you are listing Level 2 cha rging, right?
line where the SoC is 40% the charging current is 70 amps. I realize ther e is a SoC dependency of the maximum charge rate, but that relationship is dependent on the car and even the particular battery. I also don't underst and why you list kWh. If it is kW instead, the number paired with the amps seems to imply 400 volt charging. Is this level 3, DC fast charging??? M y car will charge at 120 kW from 10% to 50% where it starts ramping down to a fairly low charge rate by 90% SoC.
ket". In many ways charging facilities are presently more like utilities w ith little competition. Of course, that may change. At one time most juri sdictions regulated the pricing by the cable TV franchises that the local j urisdictions gave monopolies to. They allow competition to set the price n ow that there is competition. While you may want to "protect" the consumer , it is also in the best interest of consumers for the market to grow and d evelop. So perhaps a "fair" rate of $0.15 per kWh is not high enough to al low a reasonable profit. $0.05 a minute while charging might be a bit low as well. Tesla has a $0.50 per minute idle fee after your charging is comp lete and the station is half full. $1.00 a minute if the chargers are full although that is for a different purpose. If I was in the habit of paying for charging I think I would be willing to pay double the rates you are su ggesting.
I think you have some fundamental misunderstandings of how charging works. The only time anyone would use chargers on a similar model to gas stations is when they are on long trips which require refueling in route or when th ey have no other options. In both those cases the chargers are infrequent enough to be "last chance gas!". But that is the exception for most people who charge either at home, at work or while eating/shopping.
If EV owners can charge at home, they will do that. If not, the next best option is to charge at work. Working in the city means you don't have a lo t of time to walk or take a bus from the charger to work, so yes, if there is just one charger near work it, again, is "last chance gas!"
While shopping you have more options because you can choose where you shop. But there are relatively few options for that. I have found very few cha rgers of any sort near shopping.
The problem right now is there is no "last chance gas!" chargers and no "Do nnie's Discount Charging" in most areas where people want to drive. That w ill change, but we'll see how fast. I don't believe the "free market" mode l will work well, a bit like color TV. The sets were expensive and there w ere only a few shows in color. No one wanted to buy sets because there wer e few shows and shows didn't want to pay for color production because there were few sets. Likewise, EV charging will require investment by someone w ith a bit more at stake.
Tesla has an adequate network for fast charging and not nearly enough "dest ination" chargers (level 2). There are a lot more non-Tesla level 2 charge rs, but not nearly enough. As part of Volkswagen's penance they are paying for an extensive network of DC fast chargers. I hope they also provide a bunch of level 2 chargers. I'd like to see the big chains get into install ing level 2 charging at all their stores like Costco. Who doesn't end up s pending an hour or so at the big stores when they go out? Level 2 chargers can put the miles back on your car you used to get there and more.
Rick C.
-- Get 6 months of free supercharging -- Tesla referral code -
ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.