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Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Saturday, March 30, 2019 at 1:52:54 PM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrot
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ic-vehicle-tax-credit/
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he $7,500 federal tax credit for electric cars and tax them even more inste
ad.
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 bill to remove the federal tax credit cap for EVs and expand it to 2022.
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EV vehicle tax credits for the rich, and provides charging credit for the p
oor instead.  All charging stations should be free.
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rst, the EV purchase tax credit is not about benefiting the end user so muc
h as simply reducing the price of the vehicles so they can be sold during t
he ramp up period when costs are still high.  This seems to have been worki
ng with a new auto company founded solely producing EVs and the rest of the
 major auto companies announcing new models to be on the road in a year or  
two.  The only "defect" in the law is that it has a quantity cap for each m
anufacturer.  Tesla has used their full tax credits and will have used the  
remaining credits this year I believe.  At that point they will be at a dis
advantage, coincident with trying to roll out a new model Y.  Not so good f
or anyone.  
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, it has the opposite effect of slowing down the EV productions.  Other EV  
makers want to keep productions as slow as possible, in order to maintain t
his EV credit advantage.  Time to phase it out completely.  And to encourag
e EV ownership, enough free chargers accomplish the same.
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ns, 50 miles EV is good enough for me and many others.  We don't want to be
 driving a mobile explosive around.
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s.
d to get us off oil faster.  The actual money involved in charging is not t
hat much, but we need the incentive and volume for EV ownership to grow.
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Unless the government is herding the flock the way James Arthur wants them  
to go, or the right-wing organisation for which he is astro-turfing wants t
hem to go.

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Show your working. Your capacity for convenient conceptual errors is remark
able.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Friday, March 29, 2019 at 10:52:54 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
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Our government does exactly this sort of thing all the time.  We had massiv
e campaigns to educate people about the hazards of smoking and as a result  
smoking and deaths from smoking have declined.  Same with the use of seat b
elts and traffic deaths except we didn't just "encourage" people to wear se
at belts, we REQUIRE it by law.  

Sorry, by your definition we have been a nanny government for a long time a
nd will always be a nanny government.  That is the government most people w
ant.  One that has our best interests at heart.  Unfortunately it can get o
ut of hand at times, but overall it is a good thing.  

At least we don't have public canings for chewing gum.  


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Such narrow minded thinking would have meant we would not have many vaccine
s for example.  The government sponsored research for many vaccines which w
e otherwise would not have.  Subsidizing technology is worthwhile when it i
s in the public interests as EVs are.  The subsidies won't be around much l
onger.  Tesla and GM are reaching the end of their benefits.  


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What is a Tesla pack and what wear-and-tear are you talking about?  To the  
battery pack?  Do you mean the amortization of the cost of the battery?  Wh
y separate the battery rather than the whole car?  The batteries appear to  
be lasting as long as the rest of the car and likely longer than ICE.  Unli
ke ICE, the battery pack suffers gradual degradation of the range rather th
an sudden breaking down.  The rated life is to the point where the capacity
 is 80% of the initial value.  For many users this is not the point of thro
wing it away and the vehicle will remain very serviceable.  The rest of the
 drive line appears to be even more long lived.  

--  

  Rick C.

  +-+ Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Saturday, March 30, 2019 at 3:40:28 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wro
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We've fallen into that, but it's a misuse and misunderstanding
of federal government.

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and as a result smoking and deaths from smoking have declined.  Same with t
he use of seat belts and traffic deaths except we didn't just "encourage" p
eople to wear seat belts, we REQUIRE it by law.  
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 and will always be a nanny government.  That is the government most people
 want.  
One that has our best interests at heart.

It sounds like you believe you're unqualified to make decisions for
yourself, and want to be told what to do. And yet you consider yourself
more enlightened than the 'masses.'  IOW, you don't believe people
are fit to govern themselves.

But the crucial central theory of America was that distributed decision-
making by the People would work better than centralized; local feedback
is better than global; and that ordinary people can live their own lives
and make decisions for themselves better than potentates and their
dogmatic bureaucrats' dictates can.

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hing.  
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s.
nes for example.  The government sponsored research for many vaccines which
 we otherwise would not have.  Subsidizing technology is worthwhile when it
 is in the public interests as EVs are.  The subsidies won't be around much
 longer.  Tesla and GM are reaching the end of their benefits.  
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e battery pack?  Do you mean the amortization of the cost of the battery?  
Why separate the battery rather than the whole car?  The batteries appear t
o be lasting as long as the rest of the car and likely longer than ICE.  Un
like ICE, the battery pack suffers gradual degradation of the range rather  
than sudden breaking down.  The rated life is to the point where the capaci
ty is 80% of the initial value.  For many users this is not the point of th
rowing it away and the vehicle will remain very serviceable.  The rest of t
he drive line appears to be even more long lived.  
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Cheers,
James Arthur

Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Sunday, March 31, 2019 at 11:46:20 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
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It's always a matter of degree.  Posters urging you to buy war bonds, "nann
y" government?  Clearly attempting to "herd" the flock.  


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g and as a result smoking and deaths from smoking have declined.  Same with
 the use of seat belts and traffic deaths except we didn't just "encourage"
 people to wear seat belts, we REQUIRE it by law.  
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me and will always be a nanny government.  That is the government most peop
le want.  
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Your conclusions do not follow from the facts.  We do not govern ourselves.
  We elect people to do it for us.  But no, I don't believe people are very
 good at making decisions, especially about politics, but that's not the is
sue in this case.  Providing incentives to encourage buyers of EVs is about
 getting EVs over the hump and into wide spread use.  Like throwing the rub
ber band airplane to launch it.  

Our country does things as a group.  This is one of the things I think is g
ood for us all.  I can see where others would disagree, but that doesn't me
an it is wrong to do so.  


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Hmmm... is there a point in there somewhere???  It sounds like a lot of rhe
toric.  

You can talk about things in such vague terms that it no longer connects to
 the real issue being discussed.  I think that has happened here.  

--  

  Rick C.

  -+-- Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Sunday, March 31, 2019 at 12:53:46 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrot
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 wrote:
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wrote:
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nt
nny" government?  Clearly attempting to "herd" the flock.  
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ing and as a result smoking and deaths from smoking have declined.  Same wi
th the use of seat belts and traffic deaths except we didn't just "encourag
e" people to wear seat belts, we REQUIRE it by law.  
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time and will always be a nanny government.  That is the government most pe
ople want.  
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s.  We elect people to do it for us.  But no, I don't believe people are ve
ry good at making decisions, especially about politics, but that's not the  
issue in this case.  Providing incentives to encourage buyers of EVs is abo
ut getting EVs over the hump and into wide spread use.  Like throwing the r
ubber band airplane to launch it.  
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 good for us all.  I can see where others would disagree, but that doesn't  
mean it is wrong to do so.  

Really, we do things as a group?  No we don't, that's silly.
(That's kinda scary actually.) We do things individually (if
and where the nannies let us).

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-
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s
hetoric.

It was a simple statement of historical fact, summarizing
the rationale for our form of government from the thinking
of some of the most brilliant men who ever lived.

The fundamental premise for creating America was that an educated,
virtuous free people could govern itself and be better off than
under your kind of nanny state run by a parliament or a king. Central
control is inflexible and inferior in almost every way.

That used to be common knowledge, taught in basic civics.  But it
won't make much sense if you haven't ever learned about our theory
of government.  You might have to be willing to read the old guys to
understand it.

You express a basic contempt for that original premise.  You
plainly believe people are sheep who need herding by their
intellectual and moral betters.  But I don't believe people
are sheep, nor do I believe the shepherds are intellectually
or morally better. The opposite, actually, is pretty obvious.

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to the real issue being discussed.  I think that has happened here.  

If you don't understand a principle then yes, of course you
won't understand the universality of its application, not even
when I said in plain words that people don't need incentives to
buy EVs.  When EVs make sense, people will buy them.

Cheers,
James Arthur

Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Sunday, March 31, 2019 at 1:37:03 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
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om wrote:
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le
ment
nanny" government?  Clearly attempting to "herd" the flock.  
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oking and as a result smoking and deaths from smoking have declined.  Same  
with the use of seat belts and traffic deaths except we didn't just "encour
age" people to wear seat belts, we REQUIRE it by law.  
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g time and will always be a nanny government.  That is the government most  
people want.  
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lf
ves.  We elect people to do it for us.  But no, I don't believe people are  
very good at making decisions, especially about politics, but that's not th
e issue in this case.  Providing incentives to encourage buyers of EVs is a
bout getting EVs over the hump and into wide spread use.  Like throwing the
 rubber band airplane to launch it.  
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is good for us all.  I can see where others would disagree, but that doesn'
t mean it is wrong to do so.  
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on-
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ck
ves
 rhetoric.
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s to the real issue being discussed.  I think that has happened here.  
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There is the problem.  You think that your *beliefs* are facts and facts ar
e other's beliefs.  

There is no more point in trying to discuss an issue with you as talking to
 a rock.  Or even talking to John Larkin.  

Enjoy...

--  

  Rick C.

  -+-+ Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
:
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ople
rnment
 "nanny" government?  Clearly attempting to "herd" the flock.  
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smoking and as a result smoking and deaths from smoking have declined.  Sam
e with the use of seat belts and traffic deaths except we didn't just "enco
urage" people to wear seat belts, we REQUIRE it by law.  
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ong time and will always be a nanny government.  That is the government mos
t people want.  
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self
elves.  We elect people to do it for us.  But no, I don't believe people ar
e very good at making decisions, especially about politics, but that's not  
the issue in this case.  Providing incentives to encourage buyers of EVs is
 about getting EVs over the hump and into wide spread use.  Like throwing t
he rubber band airplane to launch it.  
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k is good for us all.  I can see where others would disagree, but that does
n't mean it is wrong to do so.  
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sion-
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back
lives
of rhetoric.
cts to the real issue being discussed.  I think that has happened here.  
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are other's beliefs.  
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to a rock.  Or even talking to John Larkin.  
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Well gee, it seems pretty obvious that distributed decision-making
is superior to centralized in almost every way.

I mean, we don't power 100% of our electronic devices from a single
centrally-regulated power source from Washington D.C., do we?

Of course not.  We have billions of local SMPS regulators for exactly
the same reason that local individual decision-making is better: the
local micro-devices have better, faster feedback, and can respond and
allocate energy to the specific demand (need) better than one giga-device
decision-maker in Washington ever could.

America went with the individual freedom model, which is why we've
out-performed the centrally-regulated models.

See how easy that was?  I just saved you reading shelves of economic
and political philosophy theory. (You're welcome.)

And America /was/ founded on the idea that an educated people could
govern itself, and you /are/ promoting the previous idea, that people
need to be ruled.  Those are facts.


I first met John decades ago in New York.  John Larkin's funny and
smart, a fine engineer, a pretty good skier and a decent cook. So
yes, I find it odd that you reflexively caricature-assassinate[sic]
& ascribe him so many bogus attributes. It's weird.

Cheers,
James Arthur

Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com
wrote:

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I do have the common sense to wear long pants when I ski... unlike
certain people that I am too polite to name.

But decent cook? My red beans and rice and bread pudding and pancake
disasters are world-class.

Pretty good skier maybe, when I'm paralleling backwards.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Wednesday, April 3, 2019 at 2:49:53 AM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrot
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Except that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

Some degree of "centralisation" is vital otherwise the the rebellious US co
lonies would have stuck with their articles of association, rather than goi
ng over to 1788 constitutiuon.
  
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Except that each one of them is designed to draw power from a 120V 60Hz sou
rce, which is a choice that was oringinally made a some central point or ot
her.

Centrally agreed standards are a neceesary part of the system.  
  
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The USA went for system where most people's interests got represented. It w
asn't democratic representation when it was first set up, and while it is n
ow closer to democratic, other systems do better.

"Individual freedom" is what's left over after the necessary country wide c
onsistencies have been imposed. The rule of law inhibits individual at the  
point where it starts interfering with the freedom of others.

Your enthusiasm for "individual freedom" is a rhetorical claim which happen
s to ignore the way the way the US - and every other advanced industrial so
ciety actually works.
  
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You tried to discourage people from doing that on the totally spurious basi
s that you'd summarised the content. It's a lie.

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People need to agree on sets of rules that apply to everybody. These are la
ws.
America was founded on the idea that more or less sensibly selected represe
ntatives of the local population could do a better job of writing these rul
es then the English government. The educated population wasn't the whole po
pulation back then, and initially you had to own property before you could  
vote for your locla representative.

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He's gullible enough to fall for what gets posted on climate change denial  
sites. You agree with those sentiments, but since the Koch brothers pay for
 quite a lot of climate change denial propaganda you may not be as sincerel
y deluded as he is.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 4:37:03 AM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
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m wrote:

<snip>

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lf
ves.  We elect people to do it for us.  But no, I don't believe people are  
very good at making decisions, especially about politics, but that's not th
e issue in this case.  Providing incentives to encourage buyers of EVs is a
bout getting EVs over the hump and into wide spread use.  Like throwing the
 rubber band airplane to launch it.  
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is good for us all.  I can see where others would disagree, but that doesn'
t mean it is wrong to do so.  
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So each infantryman in an army is fighting as an isolated individual?

Each employee in a company is making up their own mind as to what is best f
or the company (and their interest in it)?

James Arthur does go in for rhetorical flights of fancy.
  
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on-
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ck
ves
 rhetoric.
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It's a simple statement of James Arthur's delusions about the subject, whic
h include a rather inflated idea of the "brilliance" of the founding tax ev
aders, who managed to device their constitution without any help from two o
f their most brilliant thinkers - Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine - who were  
fans of the radical enlightenment,rather than the moderate enlightenment th
at the  land-owners fancied.
  
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Totalitarian central control doesn't work well. Democratic institutions can
 allow control to be centralised enough to be effective while letting it re
act to the needs and desires of the population represented. The 1788 consti
tution wasn't all that democratic, and it hasn't been improved as much as  
could have been.
  
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From the point of view that the Founding Tax Evaders were brilliant, and th
e US is the best of all possible worlds. It's called lying to children, and
 is very popular.

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You'd certainly need to read more to find out where they got it wrong and h
ow slightly less old - and foreign - guys got it more nearly correct.

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The contempt is all for the shallow thinking that allows you peddle such no
nsense.

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It may be plain to James Arthur, but he gets to his conclusion by making so
me exceedingly fatuous assumptions.

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us.

The proposition that people aren't sheep seems reasonable. The proposition  
that  
shepherds aren't intellectually or morally better really ought to include a
 phrase identifying who they are better than. The implication is that the p
eople who have been elected or appointed to the shepherd role aren't necess
arily better than the people they are shepherding, which is an implicit cri
ticism of the selection process, which asn't been specified.

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s to the real issue being discussed.  I think that has happened here.  

James Arthur loves vagueness. It lets him get away with murder.
  
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James Arthur loves principles, and wants other people to understand them.
Like Groucho Marx, he has new set for every occasion.

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But if more people buy them, they are manufactured in larger volume, and ca
n be sold more cheaply. One of the more reliable rules of thumb in manufact
uring is that making stuff on a ten times larger scale lets you sell it for
 half the price.

Subsidising EV's gets the manufacturing volume up to a point where the high
er capital cost isn't stopping people from buying vehicles that are cheaper
 to run.

Once that has happened, you don't need subsidies any more.

James Arthur is bad at perceiving how short term nudges are supposed to wor
k, and tends to carry on as if a short term expedient is going to be a perm
anent feature. I've never been able to persuade him that Keynesian pump-pri
ming deficit spending is only appropriate when an economy is in recession,  
and has to be stopped as soon as that economy emerges from recession.

The contingent element escapes him. Or perhaps his training in high school  
debating has encouraged him to go in for silly rhetorical tricks ...

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 2:46:20 AM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
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rote:
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ote:
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James Arthur has a rather eccentric idea of what the US federal government  
ought to do, and wants to restrict what the voters can ask to do match thos
e eccentric ideas.
  
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g and as a result smoking and deaths from smoking have declined.  Same with
 the use of seat belts and traffic deaths except we didn't just "encourage"
 people to wear seat belts, we REQUIRE it by law.  
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me and will always be a nanny government.  That is the government most peop
le want.  
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That doesn't follow. The government provides the information encourages peo
ple take what are generally agreed to be the right decisions.

There's no implication that you shouldn't make up your own mind, or let som
e other busybody, like the Koch brothers, make it up for you.

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ou don't believe people are fit to govern themselves.

A bizarre over-reaction. Providing good advice isn't any kind of suggestion
 that  
people shouldn't search out other sources of advice.

The government may have an implicit duty to prosecute people who provide ba
d advice in order to further their own interests - that is fraud, and the e
ntire climate change denial business should have been jailed years ago - bu
t nobody in the US is pressing for even that.

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If this were the case, the USA would have stuck with the articles of associ
ation, rather than working out the 1788 constitution, which did centralise  
power and decision making enough to allow effective government.

Human society is collaborative, and that collaboration has to be regulated  
- democratic institutions do seem to work, though the quasi-democratic inst
itutions that the founding tax evaders set up back in 1788 aren't exactly s
tate of the art.

Primitive designs do get improved by testing out improved versions and pick
ing the most successful of those improved version. It's more intelligent de
sign than evolution, and while the founding tax evaders were tolerably inte
lligent designers the state of the art they were trying to improve on wasn'
t all that wonderful.

<snipped the stuff James Arthur didn't bother to snip>  

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Friday, March 29, 2019 at 6:04:19 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
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rote:
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ehicle-tax-credit/
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7,500 federal tax credit for electric cars and tax them even more instead.
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l to remove the federal tax credit cap for EVs and expand it to 2022.
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ehicle tax credits for the rich, and provides charging credit for the poor  
instead.  All charging stations should be free.
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 the EV purchase tax credit is not about benefiting the end user so much as
 simply reducing the price of the vehicles so they can be sold during the r
amp up period when costs are still high.  This seems to have been working w
ith a new auto company founded solely producing EVs and the rest of the maj
or auto companies announcing new models to be on the road in a year or two.
  The only "defect" in the law is that it has a quantity cap for each manuf
acturer.  Tesla has used their full tax credits and will have used the rema
ining credits this year I believe.  At that point they will be at a disadva
ntage, coincident with trying to roll out a new model Y.  Not so good for a
nyone.  
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 has the opposite effect of slowing down the EV productions.  Other EV make
rs want to keep productions as slow as possible, in order to maintain this  
EV credit advantage.  Time to phase it out completely.  And to encourage EV
 ownership, enough free chargers accomplish the same.
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50 miles EV is good enough for me and many others.  We don't want to be dri
ving a mobile explosive around.
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We let others pay for lots of stuff some use and some don't.  Has the fire  
department been to your house?  Have you walked on every sidewalk in town?  
 Do you plan to visit the wall Mexico is building for us?  

--  

  Rick C.

  --+ Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
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e:
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 wrote:
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wrote:
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-vehicle-tax-credit/
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 $7,500 federal tax credit for electric cars and tax them even more instead
.
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ill to remove the federal tax credit cap for EVs and expand it to 2022.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 vehicle tax credits for the rich, and provides charging credit for the poo
r instead.  All charging stations should be free.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
t, the EV purchase tax credit is not about benefiting the end user so much  
as simply reducing the price of the vehicles so they can be sold during the
 ramp up period when costs are still high.  This seems to have been working
 with a new auto company founded solely producing EVs and the rest of the m
ajor auto companies announcing new models to be on the road in a year or tw
o.  The only "defect" in the law is that it has a quantity cap for each man
ufacturer.  Tesla has used their full tax credits and will have used the re
maining credits this year I believe.  At that point they will be at a disad
vantage, coincident with trying to roll out a new model Y.  Not so good for
 anyone.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
it has the opposite effect of slowing down the EV productions.  Other EV ma
kers want to keep productions as slow as possible, in order to maintain thi
s EV credit advantage.  Time to phase it out completely.  And to encourage  
EV ownership, enough free chargers accomplish the same.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
, 50 miles EV is good enough for me and many others.  We don't want to be d
riving a mobile explosive around.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
e department been to your house?  Have you walked on every sidewalk in town
?  Do you plan to visit the wall Mexico is building for us?  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Government is fine for things that benefit the population
generally, but immoral to use for things that benefit one
individual at another's expense.

I'm fine with local communities voting and agreeing through their
governments to build sidewalks and have fire departments.  But
poor black folks in Mississippi shouldn't have to pay for rich
Californians' electro-toys.  That's wrong.

Cheers,
James Arthur

Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Saturday, March 30, 2019 at 1:43:40 PM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrot
e:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
te:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
te:
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ote:
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om wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
m wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ic-vehicle-tax-credit/
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he $7,500 federal tax credit for electric cars and tax them even more inste
ad.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 bill to remove the federal tax credit cap for EVs and expand it to 2022.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
EV vehicle tax credits for the rich, and provides charging credit for the p
oor instead.  All charging stations should be free.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
rst, the EV purchase tax credit is not about benefiting the end user so muc
h as simply reducing the price of the vehicles so they can be sold during t
he ramp up period when costs are still high.  This seems to have been worki
ng with a new auto company founded solely producing EVs and the rest of the
 major auto companies announcing new models to be on the road in a year or  
two.  The only "defect" in the law is that it has a quantity cap for each m
anufacturer.  Tesla has used their full tax credits and will have used the  
remaining credits this year I believe.  At that point they will be at a dis
advantage, coincident with trying to roll out a new model Y.  Not so good f
or anyone.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
, it has the opposite effect of slowing down the EV productions.  Other EV  
makers want to keep productions as slow as possible, in order to maintain t
his EV credit advantage.  Time to phase it out completely.  And to encourag
e EV ownership, enough free chargers accomplish the same.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ns, 50 miles EV is good enough for me and many others.  We don't want to be
 driving a mobile explosive around.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ire department been to your house?  Have you walked on every sidewalk in to
wn?  Do you plan to visit the wall Mexico is building for us?  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

And James Arthur gets to define which things benefit one individual at anot
her's expense.

Practically every government service benefits some individual at other peop
les expense. The existence of the US state department was vital to any Amer
ican who traveled or traded internationally, but of much less important to  
stay-at-homes, and it has existed since Ben Franklin was the US Ambassador  
to France.  
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

From James Arthur's rather blinkered point of view. He does have a lot of o
ther blind spots.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 14:17:06 -0700 (PDT),
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Thats what happend to Free air ;)

Cheers

Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Friday, March 29, 2019 at 5:21:36 PM UTC-7, Martin Riddle wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
cle-tax-credit/
Quoted text here. Click to load it
00 federal tax credit for electric cars and tax them even more instead.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
o remove the federal tax credit cap for EVs and expand it to 2022.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
cle tax credits for the rich, and provides charging credit for the poor ins
tead.  All charging stations should be free.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
e EV purchase tax credit is not about benefiting the end user so much as si
mply reducing the price of the vehicles so they can be sold during the ramp
 up period when costs are still high.  This seems to have been working with
 a new auto company founded solely producing EVs and the rest of the major  
auto companies announcing new models to be on the road in a year or two.  T
he only "defect" in the law is that it has a quantity cap for each manufact
urer.  Tesla has used their full tax credits and will have used the remaini
ng credits this year I believe.  At that point they will be at a disadvanta
ge, coincident with trying to roll out a new model Y.  Not so good for anyo
ne.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 some date regardless of company.  This will encourage early adoption while
 maintaining a level playing field.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
.  It is about getting EVs off the ground now rather than waiting another 2
0 years.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
EV charging free, will that include at home?  Make the utility company pay  
for your EV charging?  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Yes, air and water are free at home, but that doesn't stop gas stations fro
m charging for them, because there is no alternative.  I am talking about f
ree air, water and electron in public facilities.  When you are on the road
, you have no choice but to pay whatever they charge.

I am pro-EV, but anti-EV vehicle credit, because it is now having the oppos
ite effect of slowing down productions.  The less you produce, the higher y
our bargaining power with the rest of your credit.  But to balance the elim
ination of vehicle credit, we have to give in something.  Free charging is  
one option.

Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Friday, March 29, 2019 at 8:37:56 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
te:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
hicle-tax-credit/
Quoted text here. Click to load it
,500 federal tax credit for electric cars and tax them even more instead.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 to remove the federal tax credit cap for EVs and expand it to 2022.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
hicle tax credits for the rich, and provides charging credit for the poor i
nstead.  All charging stations should be free.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
the EV purchase tax credit is not about benefiting the end user so much as  
simply reducing the price of the vehicles so they can be sold during the ra
mp up period when costs are still high.  This seems to have been working wi
th a new auto company founded solely producing EVs and the rest of the majo
r auto companies announcing new models to be on the road in a year or two.  
 The only "defect" in the law is that it has a quantity cap for each manufa
cturer.  Tesla has used their full tax credits and will have used the remai
ning credits this year I believe.  At that point they will be at a disadvan
tage, coincident with trying to roll out a new model Y.  Not so good for an
yone.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
il some date regardless of company.  This will encourage early adoption whi
le maintaining a level playing field.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
or.  It is about getting EVs off the ground now rather than waiting another
 20 years.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
l EV charging free, will that include at home?  Make the utility company pa
y for your EV charging?  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
rom charging for them, because there is no alternative.  I am talking about
 free air, water and electron in public facilities.  When you are on the ro
ad, you have no choice but to pay whatever they charge.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
osite effect of slowing down productions.  The less you produce, the higher
 your bargaining power with the rest of your credit.  But to balance the el
imination of vehicle credit, we have to give in something.  Free charging i
s one option.

It's not.  I wish you would stop saying that.  You have no evidence of any  
sort.  

Free charging won't happen.  The one EV maker who was giving it away stoppe
d.  No one is going to make them start again.  

You can get free electrons.  I got free electrons in South Carolina where T
esla has not one single store or repair facility.  Seems they are against t
he law in that state.  But I got free electrons... at a level 2 charger.  


--  

  Rick C.

  -+- Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
rote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
vehicle-tax-credit/
Quoted text here. Click to load it
$7,500 federal tax credit for electric cars and tax them even more instead.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ll to remove the federal tax credit cap for EVs and expand it to 2022.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
vehicle tax credits for the rich, and provides charging credit for the poor
 instead.  All charging stations should be free.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
, the EV purchase tax credit is not about benefiting the end user so much a
s simply reducing the price of the vehicles so they can be sold during the  
ramp up period when costs are still high.  This seems to have been working  
with a new auto company founded solely producing EVs and the rest of the ma
jor auto companies announcing new models to be on the road in a year or two
.  The only "defect" in the law is that it has a quantity cap for each manu
facturer.  Tesla has used their full tax credits and will have used the rem
aining credits this year I believe.  At that point they will be at a disadv
antage, coincident with trying to roll out a new model Y.  Not so good for  
anyone.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ntil some date regardless of company.  This will encourage early adoption w
hile maintaining a level playing field.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
poor.  It is about getting EVs off the ground now rather than waiting anoth
er 20 years.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
all EV charging free, will that include at home?  Make the utility company  
pay for your EV charging?  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 from charging for them, because there is no alternative.  I am talking abo
ut free air, water and electron in public facilities.  When you are on the  
road, you have no choice but to pay whatever they charge.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
pposite effect of slowing down productions.  The less you produce, the high
er your bargaining power with the rest of your credit.  But to balance the  
elimination of vehicle credit, we have to give in something.  Free charging
 is one option.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
y sort.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ped.  No one is going to make them start again.  

Because free charging was never their real intention, they were just buying
 market share.  To be truly free, it has to be free and fair for everybody  
equally.  Their supercharging scheme is the opposite of free market.

Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
On Friday, March 29, 2019 at 9:30:59 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
te:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
e:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
c-vehicle-tax-credit/
Quoted text here. Click to load it
e $7,500 federal tax credit for electric cars and tax them even more instea
d.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
bill to remove the federal tax credit cap for EVs and expand it to 2022.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
V vehicle tax credits for the rich, and provides charging credit for the po
or instead.  All charging stations should be free.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
st, the EV purchase tax credit is not about benefiting the end user so much
 as simply reducing the price of the vehicles so they can be sold during th
e ramp up period when costs are still high.  This seems to have been workin
g with a new auto company founded solely producing EVs and the rest of the  
major auto companies announcing new models to be on the road in a year or t
wo.  The only "defect" in the law is that it has a quantity cap for each ma
nufacturer.  Tesla has used their full tax credits and will have used the r
emaining credits this year I believe.  At that point they will be at a disa
dvantage, coincident with trying to roll out a new model Y.  Not so good fo
r anyone.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 until some date regardless of company.  This will encourage early adoption
 while maintaining a level playing field.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
e poor.  It is about getting EVs off the ground now rather than waiting ano
ther 20 years.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
e all EV charging free, will that include at home?  Make the utility compan
y pay for your EV charging?  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ns from charging for them, because there is no alternative.  I am talking a
bout free air, water and electron in public facilities.  When you are on th
e road, you have no choice but to pay whatever they charge.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 opposite effect of slowing down productions.  The less you produce, the hi
gher your bargaining power with the rest of your credit.  But to balance th
e elimination of vehicle credit, we have to give in something.  Free chargi
ng is one option.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
any sort.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
opped.  No one is going to make them start again.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ng market share.  To be truly free, it has to be free and fair for everybod
y equally.  Their supercharging scheme is the opposite of free market.

What???  The market is exactly free.  You can get in and build as many char
gers as you want and charge whatever price you feel is fair.  Since you thi
nk it should be free, why not build your own network and charge nothing?  T
hat is the best possible idea as far as I can see.  What's stopping you?  

--  

  Rick C.

  -++ Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: EV Charging: Let It Be Free
:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
rote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
om wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ric-vehicle-tax-credit/
Quoted text here. Click to load it
the $7,500 federal tax credit for electric cars and tax them even more inst
ead.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
w bill to remove the federal tax credit cap for EVs and expand it to 2022.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 EV vehicle tax credits for the rich, and provides charging credit for the  
poor instead.  All charging stations should be free.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
irst, the EV purchase tax credit is not about benefiting the end user so mu
ch as simply reducing the price of the vehicles so they can be sold during  
the ramp up period when costs are still high.  This seems to have been work
ing with a new auto company founded solely producing EVs and the rest of th
e major auto companies announcing new models to be on the road in a year or
 two.  The only "defect" in the law is that it has a quantity cap for each  
manufacturer.  Tesla has used their full tax credits and will have used the
 remaining credits this year I believe.  At that point they will be at a di
sadvantage, coincident with trying to roll out a new model Y.  Not so good  
for anyone.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
US until some date regardless of company.  This will encourage early adopti
on while maintaining a level playing field.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
the poor.  It is about getting EVs off the ground now rather than waiting a
nother 20 years.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ake all EV charging free, will that include at home?  Make the utility comp
any pay for your EV charging?  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ions from charging for them, because there is no alternative.  I am talking
 about free air, water and electron in public facilities.  When you are on  
the road, you have no choice but to pay whatever they charge.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
he opposite effect of slowing down productions.  The less you produce, the  
higher your bargaining power with the rest of your credit.  But to balance  
the elimination of vehicle credit, we have to give in something.  Free char
ging is one option.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
f any sort.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
stopped.  No one is going to make them start again.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ying market share.  To be truly free, it has to be free and fair for everyb
ody equally.  Their supercharging scheme is the opposite of free market.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
argers as you want and charge whatever price you feel is fair.  Since you t
hink it should be free, why not build your own network and charge nothing?  
 That is the best possible idea as far as I can see.  What's stopping you?
  

Laws. I offered to build a station in public, but it would take an act of g
ods (congress) to make it happen.

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