EV Charging in the UK

I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it i s here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough . That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribut ion is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to c harge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typica l user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no separa te ground is provided to the home, only the neutral. This neutral is bonde d to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are al l at neutral voltage. This does make it hard to use electricity outside wh ere you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance. To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is require d which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequat ely conductive path.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging ca pability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in publ ic facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking l ot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the co st of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Rick C.

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Rick C
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Makes a lot more sense to have centrally located charging facilities in the UK.

50 charging stations and the claim is that would position all EV drivers always within at least 50 miles of a charging station.
Reply to
bitrex

At most, rather

Reply to
bitrex

Cool. Drive 100 miles round trip to charge your car.

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John Larkin

is here in the US.

n the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trou gh. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicle s for 50 miles.

ution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many old er areas (which they seem to have a lot of).

We do. Our supply is a paper cable. I've lost count of how many times it's shorted out.

erwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require rep lacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

Which is all underground in towns, cities & villages.

rate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral.

The neutral is also ground in PME systems

uld be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would b e no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grou nds in the house are all at neutral voltage.

That is not ideal safety-wise, but mostly works. The main reason it's consi dered safe is in the name, protective multiple earth. There are repeated ea rthing points. Losing one does not make anything live.

a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance.

If it's regarded as an issue you just use IT earthing for the outdoor feed, ie a local ground rod

s is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

not really, nothing expensive about them. Where impedance is high one uses an RCD - but those are universal now anyway.

capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in pu blic facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Everything I've heard indicates that kerbside charging would be very expens ive to install in quantity. The infrastructure to support iy isn't there.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

Bogus. I can't believe houses don't have enough current capacity (2kW/230V = 9A) to run 1.5kW microwave ovens, dishwashers, washers, electric dryers, lights, TVs, HVAC, and a few electric water heaters. In my visits to England, they even had heated towel racks in their bathrooms. A household without those basic amenities isn't going to be buying EV cars anyway.

My car charges in 4 hours overnight, taking only 1.4kW while doing so. I've driven 4k miles so far, and still have 80% of my second tank of gas.

The infrastructure Rick is thinking about is for level 2 fast charging, which might be useful for a few long trips, but not for everyday commuting.

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Winfield Hill

Only if you live in far northern Scotland or Cornwall or something, most of the UK's population lives in, y'know, population centers.

The average round-trip work car commute in the UK is less than 20 miles (thru god-awful traffic.) Even 2kW overnight charge is enough for that

Reply to
bitrex

is here in the US.

n the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trou gh. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicle s for 50 miles.

The average car mileage in the UK is about 8,000 miles per year, even allow ing for increased usage during weekdays it probably only amounts to 25-30 m iles per day to recharge. Not 50 miles.

The more optimistic view would therefore be that about 50% of the cars coul d be charged without requiring any further investment in power generation e quipment.

ution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many old er areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typi cal user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distributi on cabling.

I'm somewhat skeptical of that.

My parents house in the UK was built in the 1950's and it had a 40A service - that is 10kW.

Admittedly there are many older houses and areas but in the 75 years since WW2 much of the country has been rewired to meet the modern standards which were established about that time.

Also I suspect that is the long term average for generation not necessarily the limit for wiring. After all every house would have items such as micro waves etc and in particular the electric kettle for making the cup of tea.

Electric kettles in UK usually have a 3kW heating element (240V @ 13A) and it is a well known phenomenon that during intervals of popular TV programs a large percentage of the population goes to "make a cup of tea" causing a huge increase in electrical consumption. The system can already tolerate t hat.

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Also the 3kW of power available from a normal outlet means that charging is significantly faster than in the US. It would provide 10-12miles/hour for most EVs. ~100 miles overnight, without any special wiring.

KW ...

Reply to
keith

it is here in the US.

een the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the tr ough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehic les for 50 miles.

ibution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many o lder areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a ty pical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribu tion cabling.

parate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral. This neutral is b onded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe si nce even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard s ince there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house ar e all at neutral voltage. This does make it hard to use electricity outsid e where you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance. To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is req uired which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an ade quately conductive path.

g capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parki ng lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to th e cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Can you explain how that makes sense? The gasoline distribution model is t he one that is a PITA with drivers having to drive someplace to fill up. E Vs can charge at home... at least in most first world countries. Then your car is always topped off and you never need to visit a messy, ugly, smelly filling station unless you are on a long trip and feel the need for using dirty bathrooms. Fast DC chargers such as these are only useful for long t rips. This makes literally no sense for every day use. Would you drive 50 miles to fill your car with gas?

Or are you being facetious?

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Rick C

it is here in the US.

een the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the tr ough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehic les for 50 miles.

ibution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many o lder areas (which they seem to have a lot of).

s shorted out.

therwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require r eplacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

parate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral.

could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the gr ounds in the house are all at neutral voltage.

sidered safe is in the name, protective multiple earth. There are repeated earthing points. Losing one does not make anything live.

ct a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance .

d, ie a local ground rod

ses is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive pat h.

s an RCD - but those are universal now anyway.

So why didn't those guys tell me about the RCD solution? That's what we ca ll a GFCI I believe, trips on unbalanced current in neutral and ground, rig ht?

g capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parki ng lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to th e cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

nsive to install in quantity. The infrastructure to support iy isn't there.

You sound like you can address this rationally. Can you verify the 2 kW pe r house typical usage? That seems awfully low. I understand coffee makers in the UK are designed to use the full 13 amps on a 240 volt circuit. Tha t is 3 kW. So with a few other things drawing similar loads I don't see ho w a distribution system designed for 2 kW could ever suffice. Is this one of those things where the 2 kW figure only applies to older neighborhoods? Any idea of what percentage of the homes are like this?

I have to acknowledge that if this 2 kW number is correct and a large fract ion of homes in the UK receive such meager distribution, home EV charging o f any significant fraction of the cars would be impossible. Otherwise addi ng a simple 13 amp outlet accessible to the EV would suffice for charging u p to 150 miles per night or more.

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Rick C

These guys get very touchy if I ask them too many questions or probe too de eply about what is behind what they tell me. But I think the 2 kW figure i s for older neighborhoods (estates) that were wired in the 70s when aluminu m was being used. They talk about the ground sheath being erroded away los ing safety grounds or on PEN (PME) type circuits losing the neutral that ca use the house neutral to become high voltage.

They talk like there are a lot of these which have never been upgraded. Re member this is a country that shortchanged the grid to the point it is cons tantly on the verge of collapse at peak times.

Your car is a hybrid with a very limited battery range and your driving pat tern is of very limited range needs. Not many people can make that work th e way you do.

No, I am talking about level 2 charging, but there is nothing fast about it . A typical outlet in the UK provides 3 kW which will provide 150 miles of range in a Tesla model 3 overnight. Overnight charging also prevents stre ssing the generation and transmission infrastructure since it won't be unti l the country is 33% EVs that the spare capacity is used up. The UK does n ot appear to be an early adopter, so that will likely take some 10 years. That will give them plenty of time to build additional generating capacity.

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Rick C

...

deeply about what is behind what they tell me. But I think the 2 kW figure is for older neighborhoods (estates) that were wired in the 70s when alumi num was being used. They talk about the ground sheath being erroded away l osing safety grounds or on PEN (PME) type circuits losing the neutral that cause the house neutral to become high voltage.

I have never heard of Aluminium wiring being used in the UK. Especially in the 70s.

By the 50's the current outlet and wiring standard was introduced, houses b uilt since then would have wiring similar to today including such features as ring mains.

I'm highly skeptical that individual houses or even sub-divisions are wired with a 2kW allowance per house.

A single electric kettle takes 3kW - they couldn't make a cup of tea :-)

That might be a reasonable average over a much longer period (e.g. 24hours) - but not a shorter period.

kevin

...

Reply to
keith

it is here in the US.

een the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the tr ough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehic les for 50 miles.

owing for increased usage during weekdays it probably only amounts to 25-30 miles per day to recharge. Not 50 miles.

uld be charged without requiring any further investment in power generation equipment.

Ok, if you say so, I won't argue. I was trying to use numbers that could n ot be disputed. The same point applies in the US but many can't understand that EVs actually help the electrical system since it would take advantage of underutilized capacity during off peak times reducing the average cost of electricity.

ibution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many o lder areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a ty pical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribu tion cabling.

ce - that is 10kW.

That doesn't mean the distribution was sized so everyone could use 10 kW. We have the same issue in the US, but when I tried to raise that issue in a Tesla forum I was told many things about this not being a significant fact or. I have to admit a 3 to 5 kW load at night is not so big a fraction of the typical use as in the UK most likely. I can't independently verify wha t typical design capacities are in the US or the UK.

e WW2 much of the country has been rewired to meet the modern standards whi ch were established about that time.

But how modern were they in the years after the war?

ly the limit for wiring. After all every house would have items such as mic rowaves etc and in particular the electric kettle for making the cup of tea .

This number came from a person who works in that capacity. So I can't disp ute his numbers without having a reference of my own.

d it is a well known phenomenon that during intervals of popular TV program s a large percentage of the population goes to "make a cup of tea" causing a huge increase in electrical consumption. The system can already tolerate that.

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is significantly faster than in the US. It would provide 10-12miles/hour fo r most EVs. ~100 miles overnight, without any special wiring.

Yes, US outlets can provide 1.5 kW. Can UK outlets provide a full 13 amps continuously? I think someone told me that which is different from the US where continuous loads have to be derated to 80%, so 12 amps at 120 volts.

There have been times when I needed more charge than that overnight, but on ly once or twice. The end result was that I had to stop for a Supercharger visit on the way rather than running all the way to NC without stopping. Not so big a deal. After having my car for nearly a year I still have not installed level 2 charging. I used to use level 1 outlets, but now I just use a Supercharger along my route.

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Rick C

o deeply about what is behind what they tell me. But I think the 2 kW figu re is for older neighborhoods (estates) that were wired in the 70s when alu minum was being used. They talk about the ground sheath being erroded away losing safety grounds or on PEN (PME) type circuits losing the neutral tha t cause the house neutral to become high voltage.

n the 70s.

These guys are hams and my experience is that when you have a group of them the collective knowledge is large and accurate.

built since then would have wiring similar to today including such feature s as ring mains.

ed with a 2kW allowance per house.

s) - but not a shorter period.

It's not a time average. It's a population average. How many people flush their toilets at the same time? Normally there is a pretty steady flow of water in most pipes in the distribution system. But if everyone in a neig hborhood flushes at the same time the pressure will drop considerably. But how often will that happen? Someone here mentioned the tea kettle during the commercial break phenomenon. But even then it takes, what, 2 minutes t o heat tea? 1 minute? The distribution wiring won't explode from that.

I can't argue with either you or the others who gave the 2 kW figure. He i s in the business and you make a good analysis which is what I thought. I essentially got shouted down when I tried to present that analysis. I felt like I was in Parliament.

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Rick C

I've never seen a formal derating. Items such as kettles can be the full 13A (~3kW) but they take the load for a short time. The house wiring is actually good for high current as it is usually on a ring main.

I see that the BMWi3 and the Leaf both are set to 10A when powered from a normal outlet. (2.4kW)

kw

Reply to
keith

The average UK resident drives well under 10k miles a year, with a car with 250 mile range and a fast charger you'd only have to go to the "filling station" once a week.

Plenty of Model S, etc. drivers operate their cars that way in Massachusetts and Rhode Island. one guy lives in a condo like I do he doesn't even have a garage, where's he gonna put a level 2 charger to charge up overnight?

Reply to
bitrex

If you only drive a few miles a day in a regular car, you won't use much gasoline so you won't Destroy The Planet. You can spend 5 minutes, every few weeks, filling up. That's just about the right amount of time to squeegie the windows.

If you drive long distances, charging an electric car becomes a nuisance.

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John Larkin

On a sunny day (15 Jun 2019 16:42:45 -0700) it happened Winfield Hill wrote in :

I just wonder if UK leaves EU if they will go back to 240 V ;-) Or maybe even 380 just to make a difference. US 110 is also a possibility, if trump says so.

In the end the whole climate hype is a hoax, climate change is not human caused, it is set by orbital parameters:

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So, we need to bring all power we can online for the future. diversify, even that will not be enough, mass migration, and possibly a big reduction in human species will happen.

Oil will get us through a while.. Where does the oil come from?: It is the condensed early earth atmosphere, it is everywhere in the ground.

Kid's brains were polluted by climate games played by that what's his name (cannot remember the polar bears idiot) politicians for profit. It is a political game for profit. Mass manipulation.

Making all transport electric is wrong, you need to diversify. One hacker, one solar storm , one high altitude nuke, is all it takes to kill most of civilization if all is electric, It will happen, (looks up date, oops)... Al Gore, that is where the crap started.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

That's a good example of where the mean value can be misleading.

My normal daily travel is, I guess, less than 20 miles. But one day last week it was 450 miles. I need a car that can do both.

That took ~12 hours, including stops in the middle of nowhere to relax and snooze. The latter would not have been possible in a petrol forecourt.

IIRC the first major standardisation was to 240V with 5A sockets. In the 50s/60s most places were rewired to 13A sockets. I remember as a kid (early 60s) having to change mains plugs when I took toys to my friend's house because they still had the old plugs.

Yes, individual sockets are rated to deliver 13A continuously. However, they are usually on ring mains which have 5A (lighting) or 30A (sockets) thermal fuses.

Then there are electric showers and electric ovens, which have dedicated lines run from the fuse box, and are rated up to 7kW.

Modern houses may be different, but in the UK many houses are 100-200 years old and will have been rewired in the 50s or 60s.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

n it is here in the US.

tween the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million veh icles for 50 miles.

tribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it har d to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distri bution cabling.

separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral. This neutral is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded m y any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage. This does make it hard to use electricity outs ide where you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution wi th any grounded appliance. To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is r equired which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an a dequately conductive path.

ing capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or i n public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and par king lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that on e.

n

rs

is the one that is a PITA with drivers having to drive someplace to fill up . EVs can charge at home... at least in most first world countries. Then your car is always topped off and you never need to visit a messy, ugly, sm elly filling station unless you are on a long trip and feel the need for us ing dirty bathrooms. Fast DC chargers such as these are only useful for lo ng trips. This makes literally no sense for every day use. Would you driv e 50 miles to fill your car with gas?

There are plenty of people who do all manner of things. That doesn't mean many others will. For the most part, people want EVs to emulate an ICE bec ause that is what they are used to. I've been shuttling my brother to medi cal appointments the last few days and while the EV has been no problem at all and I was able to fully charge it overnight at the local hospital parki ng deck which is just a block away, he still insists he couldn't drive an E V because they take so long to charge and once in a while he has to go on l ong trips.

On the other hand a friend went with me to North Carolina where we managed to get there without charging, but had to charge on the way back. We stopp ed at a Wawa and got something to eat and chatted with a few people. I loo ked at my phone app which showed it had something like 75% which is well mo re than enough to continue the trip and he was surprised that it didn't eve n take an hour, about 40 minutes I think.

I think it is silly to use the "fast" chargers the same way people use fill ing stations. Some don't live in places where they can plug in at home, so they have to use the filling station model. But the vast majority of EV o wners plug in at home and literally never need to visit a charger unless th ey want to take a long trip. Consider the time you save not messing with t he hassle of gas stations.

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