EV Charging in the UK

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I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it i
s here in the US.  

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between  
the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough
.  That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles  
for 50 miles.  

But I'm being told there are two problems with that.  One is that distribut
ion is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older
 areas (which they seem to have a lot of).  This clearly makes it hard to c
harge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typica
l user.  In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution
 cabling.  

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no separa
te ground is provided to the home, only the neutral.  This neutral is bonde
d to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any  
means, like an old radiator heating system.  This is considered safe since  
even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since
 there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are al
l at neutral voltage.  This does make it hard to use electricity outside wh
ere you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any
 grounded appliance.  To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is require
d which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequat
ely conductive path.  

So are these two problems being presented realistically?  

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging ca
pability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in publ
ic facilities.  I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking l
ot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the co
st of a car.  But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.  

Rick C.

Re: EV Charging in the UK
On 6/15/19 4:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
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Makes a lot more sense to have centrally located charging facilities in  
the UK.

<https://www.electrive.com/2018/02/19/national-grid-install-high-power-charging-across-uk/

50 charging stations and the claim is that would position all EV drivers  
always within at least 50 miles of a charging station.

Re: EV Charging in the UK
On 6/15/19 5:29 PM, bitrex wrote:
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At most, rather

Re: EV Charging in the UK

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Cool. Drive 100 miles round trip to charge your car.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: EV Charging in the UK
On 6/15/19 6:19 PM, John Larkin wrote:
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Only if you live in far northern Scotland or Cornwall or something, most  
of the UK's population lives in, y'know, population centers.

The average round-trip work car commute in the UK is less than 20 miles  
(thru god-awful traffic.) Even 2kW overnight charge is enough for that

Re: EV Charging in the UK

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If you only drive a few miles a day in a regular car, you won't use
much gasoline so you won't Destroy The Planet. You can spend 5
minutes, every few weeks, filling up. That's just about the right
amount of time to squeegie the windows.

If you drive long distances, charging an electric car becomes a
nuisance.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: EV Charging in the UK
On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 22:21:45 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

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Even if you drive short distances, charging an electric car becomes a
nuisance.



--  
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the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other  
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Re: EV Charging in the UK
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 5:26:13 AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
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Gosh, someone even more ignorant than Larkin!  

Let me repeat myself yet again.  Charge at home, always have a full battery
 in the morning and never have to drive to a busy, smelly, nasty gas statio
n again.  Also, now regular maintenance, no oil changes, no noise...  just  
the smoothest power you've ever felt in a car!  

--  

  Rick C.

  +-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: EV Charging in the UK
On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 02:41:27 -0700, Rick C wrote:

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I thought you were referencing the situation specifically in the UK,  
where access to charging, even if you own your own home, is frequently  
impossible.




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Re: EV Charging in the UK
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 11:31:23 AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
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There is no point in continuing to discuss this with you.  "Impossible" is  
a strong word.  If that really applies in the UK, then you guys have some v
ery seriously large problems.  I have had posters from the UK talk like the
y don't expect any new generation capability to be built even in 30 years.  
 What happened to the UK, one time ruler of the waves, breakers of the Enig
ma code?  You guys can't even figure out how to install electric outlets???
  

--  

  Rick C.

  -+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: EV Charging in the UK
On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 12:08:07 -0700, Rick C wrote:

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No need to get hysterical. I'm just referring to the desperately  
overcrowded streets and the fact that many people in towns and cities  
simply cannot park outside their own homes due to the sheer numbers of  
cars and the narrowness of the streets.



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Re: EV Charging in the UK
On 16/06/19 20:08, Rick C wrote:
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Blimey. Here's a remarkable event: I'm going to side with CD.

Yes, the UK is rather different to the USA.

Yes, in quite a few locations installing electrical outlets
will be difficult to the point of being impossible.

Yes, installation is only part of the problem; there are
others, as mentioned by people that actually know the UK.

And, quite frankly, it is ridiculous to mutter about rulers
of the waves, enigma code etc, when the US can't even give
healthcare to all its citizens, and refuses to reduce its
appalling infant mortality rate, etc.


Re: EV Charging in the UK
On 6/16/19 4:23 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
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<https://www.amazon.com/Conntek-20261-100-Extension-Cord-Listed/dp/B078KHQ7QZ/>

yankee ingenuity to the rescue

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Re: EV Charging in the UK
On 17/06/19 00:59, bitrex wrote:
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Good try, but no cigar.

But just a /little/ impractical when it has to reach from
the top-floor flat (zoomed in) to the red car (zoomed out
then behind right foot):
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4660229,-2.6098948,3a,15y,46.44h,100.67t/data =!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBvUrLYxFNTfvp42f4NJkiA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

That would be normal near where I live, and triple the
distance is often the case!

Re: EV Charging in the UK
On 6/16/19 8:32 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
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wow, look at all those Audis, Rovers, BMWs and shit all lined up with  
their rims still on lol. Tiny street, that street could be stripped for  
parts in like 10 min.

Re: EV Charging in the UK
On 17/06/19 03:22, bitrex wrote:
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This area, a couple of miles away from that picture is
(or used to be) one of the car crime hotspots outside
London. It is also one of the expensive areas, so most
of these properties have been subdivided into flats.

It is also a conservation area, meaning very few changes to
buildings/street furniture etc are allowed. For example,
the window frames have to be wood; UPVC double glazing is
forbidden.

None of these places has any car infrastructure, and
finding a parking place is notoriously difficult.
Good luck finding a way to charge an EV here!

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4547461,-2.6218424,3a,75y,81.99h,94.58t/data =!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sImNrZVnpnthMWNxmXZGxng!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4536282,-2.6213062,3a,75y,68.98h,89.08t/data =!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRFOWkod_BSkU0jAhPVGhmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Or another nearby city

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3861957,-2.363756,3a,75y,43.16h,86.57t/data =!3m10!1e1!3m8!1sgLAHeQsdtEw9t-NVPbgAUQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DgLAHeQsdtEw9t-NVPbgAUQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.21129%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i45


There are many, many /many/ places in the UK like
this, ditto European cities.

It is one example of why Rick C really ought to go
and see /before/ he makes up his mind.

Re: EV Charging in the UK
On 6/16/19 3:08 PM, Rick C wrote:
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<https://www.amazon.com/Conntek-20261-100-Extension-Cord-Listed/dp/B078KHQ7QZ/>

they said it couldn't be done

Re: EV Charging in the UK
On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Jun 2019 20:00:49 -0400) it happened bitrex

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Netherlands, still next to UK, continental drift apart,
showed me this news this morning,, screen shot in Dutch:
 
http://panteltje.com/pub/less_electric.gif
It says that lease companies and environmental groups fear a break
on the 'electric' cars bandwagon.
It says the government has plans to half subsidies for electric cars
and will not put extra taxes on normal cars.
The lease companies fear that electric cars will be 'needlessly' more expensive.

I think somebody in our government is doing the right thing :-)


The hype is over before it took form!



Re: EV Charging in the UK
On 16/06/2019 20:08, Rick C wrote:
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It does and we do. Nimbys don't want power stations built at all and  
market economics in a privatised generation system has resulted in  
massive under investment. Whilst planned closures have almost all gone  
ahead new build of power stations has been stalled for nearly a decade.

See fig 1 in this report (which proved to be optimistic).
https://www.raeng.org.uk/publications/reports/gb-electricity-capacity-margin

Engineers have been on at the government for decades Professor Ian Fells  
used to advise World governments on this and had been pointing out that  
UK energy policy was crazy since the turn of the century. Earliest one I  
can easily find is in 2005 - he has pretty much been proved right.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2795073.stm

We have a chunk of supergrid spur near us which serves no useful purpose  
at all. It was intended to take all the output of the proposed Enron  
power station down south where it is needed but Enron went bust before  
they even broke ground for the power station.

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They might get some new generation kit online in as little as 10 years  
but the government is so preoccupied with Brexit that basically no  
strategic decisions on energy infrastructure are being taken. Worse  
still they are applying installed capacity heuristics that made sense  
for real generation (where you have real 20MW on tap to use or not) to  
the installed peak output of renewables where availability scales with  
the cube of the windspeed or whether the sun is shining.

Brexit itself has screwed up all the heavy carbon users since 28/3  
(official Brexit day) they can no longer buy EU carbon credits.

https://www.ft.com/content/73d47ce2-6049-11e9-a27a-fdd51850994c

This killed British Steel stone dead a couple of weeks back.

You have to understand that UK streets are fairly narrow congested and  
street parking very crowded. There are already water, sewage, gas,  
electricity and cable TV buried under the pavements and roads.

It is a serious undertaking to close a road to make such alterations.

--  
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: EV Charging in the UK
Rick C wrote:

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Once every 3 weeks for 5 minutes? You may have a point in general, but  
this kind of argument doesn't help. For me the need to perform any form  
of maintenance every single day (charging is a form thereof) would be a  
sure deal breaker.

    Best regards, Piotr


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