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Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change

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Around here, it's a mild 80 degrees F, and the landscape is scraped
and littered with eccentric boulders dumped by the glaciers.It *will*
return to that one day.


--  

John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
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Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Saturday, July 7, 2018 at 2:07:09 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
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One day is thousands of years off. What about 8 years to extinction do you not understand?

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Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 15:39:40 -0700 (PDT),
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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I understand that it's preposterous. And that your life is dominated
by fear and gloom. You should do something about that.  

Why not find some way to enjoy the eight (or 20, or 60) years that you
have left on Earth?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb

https://www.aei.org/publication/18-spectacularly-wrong-apocalyptic-predictions-made-around-the-time-of-the-first-earth-day-in-1970-expect-more-this-year-2/

http://dailycaller.com/2015/05/04/25-years-of-predicting-the-global-warming-tipping-point/

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_predictions_of_the_end_of_the_world

Fun stuff. Part of the more general issues of fear and institutional
wrongness.

The biggest threats are probably mass vulcanism or nuclear war.




--  

John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
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Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Saturday, July 7, 2018 at 7:26:37 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
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Take a look at what you're doing: talking around the issue about every and anything except the evidence at hand. Clearly you're scared to death.

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Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 17:27:15 -0700 (PDT),
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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I've never been afraid, of practically anything [1]. That has got me
into trouble now and then, fortunately nothing lethal or disabling so
far.

I can't imagine a mechanism that would make millions of square miles
of methane bubble up all at once. If there is long-term warming, and
if it does release methane, it will take thousands of years. And the
half-life of methane in the atmosphere is 12 years.

So find something else to be terrified about.  

[1] I did develop a fear of heights, about the age of 40. I've heard
other guys say the same thing. But that faded away. Somehow it never
affected my skiing.


--  

John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
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Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Saturday, July 7, 2018 at 11:40:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

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And can you also not imagine a mechanism that would flash all
the moisture in a popcorn kernel into steam without taking
thousands of milliseconds?

Breaking the crust, popping a bubble, blowing up a boiler...
abrupt rapid gas emission is completely known to happen.

Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
wrote:

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Ah, science by analogy. Easier than thinking.




--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

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Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 1:22:19 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
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No, critical thinking by rejecting hypotheses that have already been
tested and found wanting.   No analogy on offer, just an
example of 'a mechanism that...'.

Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
wrote:

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Why would all that methane ice all over the world, at various depths
and latitudes and temperatures, decide to blow up like a popcorn
kernal, all at once?

It wouldn't.  



--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

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Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 6:57:13 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

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Why does a balloon pop all at once?  Latera sound waves in a sheet
would be one such mechanism.   Don't encourage illogical
optimism with statements you can't support, even by analogy.   That's
deception, has no redeeming value.

Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
wrote:

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It doesn't.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 12:51:31 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
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It doesn't in the same way that *nothing* is simultaneous.  There is always some minute amount of time between events.  

Rick C.  

Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 11:08:02 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
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If you put a pan of water on the stove and heat it, it will start to simmer
 and somewhat later boil, but all the water does not turn to steam at the s
ame time.  Because it takes energy to vaporise  the water.  Even if you use
 a pressure cooker, you can not get all the water to turn to steam when you
 vent the pressure cooker.  I do not think methane would act differently.  
And do not believe that it is illogical optimism to believe that vaporising
 methane ice would require energy.

                                 Dan

Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 7:27:42 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@krl.org wrote:
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er and somewhat later boil, but all the water does not turn to steam at the
 same time.  Because it takes energy to vaporise  the water.  Even if you u
se a pressure cooker, you can not get all the water to turn to steam when y
ou vent the pressure cooker.  I do not think methane would act differently.
  And do not believe that it is illogical optimism to believe that vaporisi
ng methane ice would require energy.

It was May 18, 1980, in the early morning, when Mount St. Helens erupted.  
  There was
a mile-high plume, ash clouds, but mainly just vast amounts of steam, which
 had been
subterranean water an hour earlier.   Nearby, the trees got so hot that the
y exploded
(I was there a week or so later, digging into the ash and finding toothpick
-sized  
bits of wood).    So, it's no stretch of the imagination to think that buri
ed clathrate can,
when heated, become unstable to minor shifts in the overburden that keeps i
t at
enough pressure not to become gas.

Even though it takes energy, the issue is stability against the perturbatio
ns that occur.
Mt. St. Helens was technically erupting for a year or three, doing mound-bu
ilding
movement, but it's the initial explosive event of May 18 that we all find m
emorable.

Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 7:27:42 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@krl.org wrote:
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er and somewhat later boil, but all the water does not turn to steam at the
 same time.  Because it takes energy to vaporise  the water.  Even if you u
se a pressure cooker, you can not get all the water to turn to steam when y
ou vent the pressure cooker.  I do not think methane would act differently.
  And do not believe that it is illogical optimism to believe that vaporisi
ng methane ice would require energy.

The ice is not frozen methane.  Methane is simply dissolved in the ice in t
he same way it is dissolved in water.  The process of releasing methane at  
warmer temperatures is much more like the CO2 being released from a bottle  
of soft drink.  When cold the CO2 is highly soluble and releases slowly if  
at all.  When it warms up it releases much more quickly.  Under the right c
onditions such as an abrupt lowering of pressure the CO2 leaves solution ve
ry rapidly.  

It wouldn't hurt to read about the process rather than just relying on the  
many noise sources you find here.  

When JL disbelieves various aspects of AGW because he has read some bad sci
ence on a web site is one thing.  He has simply trusted a bad source.  But  
when he makes up science in his own head and ignores the opinions of expert
s because he has read virtually nothing about the topic just shows what a t
ruly poor thinker he is.  JL would do well to heed his own advice and stick
 to posting about electronics where he is at least familiar with the topic  
and stop posting about things he not only is ignorant of, but refuses to do
 any objective studying.  

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.  

Rick C.

Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 2:10:45 AM UTC+2, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wro
te:
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s
mmer and somewhat later boil, but all the water does not turn to steam at t
he same time.  Because it takes energy to vaporise  the water.  Even if you
 use a pressure cooker, you can not get all the water to turn to steam when
 you vent the pressure cooker.  I do not think methane would act differentl
y.  And do not believe that it is illogical optimism to believe that vapori
sing methane ice would require energy.
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 the same way it is dissolved in water.

Sort of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate

The structure of the water wrapped around the methane molecules isn't quite
 the same as ice, and a lot less random than liquid water, and mathane ice  
can contains a lot more methane than you can dissolve in water.

The thermodynamics are complicated, because the clathrate structure isn't u
sually saturatred with methane.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jp055422f

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e the CO2 being released from a bottle of soft drink.  When cold the CO2 is
 highly soluble and releases slowly if at all.  When it warms up it release
s much more quickly.  Under the right conditions such as an abrupt lowering
 of pressure the CO2 leaves solution very rapidly.  

You usually have find some heat - not a lot - to get this to happen.
  
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e many noise sources you find here.  

I didn't find it all that helpful - the .pdf I linked to probably contaons  
enough inormation to let me work heat flows if I stuck at it for long enoug
h, and there are probably paper around that concentrate on the thermal aspe
cts of the process, but I wasn't prepared to keep looking.

<snip>

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 7:27:42 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@krl.org wrote:
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er and somewhat later boil, but all the water does not turn to steam at the
 same time.  Because it takes energy to vaporise  the water.  Even if you u
se a pressure cooker, you can not get all the water to turn to steam when y
ou vent the pressure cooker.  I do not think methane would act differently.
  And do not believe that it is illogical optimism to believe that vaporisi
ng methane ice would require energy.

You don't *think*!???  Why don't you read a little and learn what will happ
en?  It's not like this requires original research.  

Rick C.

Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 12:57:13 AM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
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The problem is that if a small proportion let go, it would make the atmosphere warmer, making it more likely that another small proportion would hit the unstable region and release more methane.

It's called positive feedback.

When it last happened, setting off the  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleocene%E2%80%93Eocene_Thermal_Maximum

the first pulse was spread over two thousand years, so it wasn't all that quick.

However, we are injecting more a lot more carbon per year at the moment.

" However, the amount of released carbon, according to a recent study, suggest a modest 0.2 gigatonnes per year (at peaks 0.58 gigatonnes); humans today add about 10 gigatonnes per year."

Your confidence may be ill-founded.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 1:22:19 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
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LOL!  Pot calling the kettle black!  

Rick C.  

Re: Ecosystems across Australia are collapsing under climate change
On 2018/07/08 8:06 PM, whit3rd wrote:
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Perhaps if our sun went nova you would get the energy required to  
vaporize vast areas of arctic tundra in a very short period of time,  
fortunately it apparently is not of the size to have that likely to happen.

Speaking of risks, are there any stars nearby which could go nova or  
super-nova? Is that a real potential risk to life on earth...

Nope, no stars within 50 light years are capable of going super-nova  
according to present theory.

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012-supernova.html

Or maybe not:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2311-supernova-poised-to-go-off-near-earth/

The above is from 2002, and at the time the concern was super-novas  
within 150 - 200 light years. I assume the theory has been improved if  
NASA says the risk is only within 50 LY.

Back to humans being the biggest threat to life as we know it.

John :-#(#

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