Do we have to lease out 24GHz?

A few notes about 5G and similar high capacity cellular networks:

  • The claimed throughput / user is about 1000 times larger than the 1G and 2G speech only cellular networks.
  • The total available spectrum is always limited, so spectral efficiency is critical. There are also other radio spectrum users.
  • With a huge number of users especially in densely populated areas means that the cell size must be very small, so that the same frequency can be reused at an other close by base stations.
  • Especially with shorter microwave wavelengths, the capture area of a dipole receiver antenna becomes quite small and thus it is incapable of collecting a lot of signal power. A directional antenna solves this problem, but a paraboloid at a mobile phone is not very practical-), but some electronically steerable mobile phone antennas would help.

IMHO the last two points means that you need to put a base station (access point) in every (or at every other) lamp post in densely populated urban areas. This means that such access points must be cheap.

The problem is how to connect such base stations to each other and to the land line Internet (fiber). Most people seem to suggest some mesh based networks (either between base stations or satellites), but this will choke when more than a few networking (forwarding) nodes are involved in a path. While AC power is available at the light pole, fibers would also be needed to be installed to light poles to support the communication.

Reply to
upsidedown
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I am not sure if those "satellite Internet" companies can do the math.

First of all, they seem to assume that they get 100 % market share (both terrestrial as well as orbital) of both customers and microwave spectrum.

In high density urban areas, this is clearly impossible. Assuming 10 GHz of spectrum available and 50 Mbit/s for each customer (at least 10 MHz bandwidth), a cell could support only 1000 simultaneous customers. At high density population areas ten cells on each square kilometers would be required. Even with LEO satellites thousands of beams would be required.

This is clearly inadequate to handle urban areas with satellite, hence most of the revenue sources are lost. Does the rural/cruise customers make such systems viable ?

Reply to
upsidedown

er

Like China? North Korea?

John

Reply to
John Robertson

They assume 3%, which they calculate works out to $30B. They'd probably be happy with 1%.

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Reply to
Winfield Hill

On a sunny day (Sun, 26 May 2019 16:09:11 +0300) it happened snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wrote in :

Yes, almost like Tesla electric cars, the grid here cannot cope with all cars being electric. But things must sell. There is an other problem with geosats, and that is latency, you clearly have to wait for a reply on SSB on QO100, 2 x 40,000 km at least... Plus the delay for all the digital processing. So in internet use, a mouse click in a browser would need a few seconds wait to take effect. For the lower orbiting sats it is not be so bad, but then you need smooth sat switching. So we will have to see what it does, For a ship it would be really nice to have weather charts, phone and email exchange at a lower price. Maybe there are also military applications. More possibilities is better :-)

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

They aren't geosats; their altitude is 273 miles vs 22000 miles. That reduces the latency by a factor of 10.

They also have the same advantage that caused the fintech sector to buy up the microwave links between Chichago and New York: the speed of light is ~50% faster than in fibres.

I'd like to know how many simultaneous Windows Updates the spacex system can cope with. To me that is more interesting than the peak point-to-point bandwidth.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

On a sunny day (Mon, 27 May 2019 07:32:42 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner wrote in :

I know, see the previous part of the discussions, but geosats do have some advantages,

Yes, that 'auto update' is sort of based on 1) bad software and 2) the fear creating sell more system Like for example. in my view, the fear for Russian and Chinese hacking and back-doors these days as used in US politics against Huawei is very similar to what happened in the Joseph McCarthy days:

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national security used or misused.

Soon EU will make MS windows illegal, it is a clear security risk, a system that spies on EU citizens and companies. :-)

Anyways, Huawei now is bringing out their own OS, seems to be droid compatible? I'd love to see a full Linux on cellphones, I think Ubuntu tried, not sure why that did not take on. Not much of a droid user, my HTC (with real keyboard) is in storage, using a simple Nokia. No windows here of course for security reasons :-) Do have many different versions of Linux in many different partitions on may computers... Auto update? No Way! I see software as a part of the hardware, once you have a working system do not fix it! New features, but really not much is new since win-3.1 and trumpet winsock, now is it?, when Billy the Gates stated that internet was really not important. OK sorry for the rant / tangent.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

On a sunny day (Mon, 27 May 2019 07:32:42 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner wrote in :

I know, see the previous part of the discussions, but geosats do have some advantages,

Yes, that 'auto update' is sort of based on 1) bad software and 2) the fear creating sell more system Like for example. in my view, the fear for Russian and Chinese hacking and back-doors these days as used in US politics against Huawei is very similar to what happened in the Joseph McCarthy days:

formatting link
national security used or misused.

Soon EU will make MS windows illegal, it is a clear security risk, a system that spies on EU citizens and companies. :-)

Anyways, Huawei now is bringing out their own OS, seems to be droid compatible? I'd love to see a full Linux on cellphones, I think Ubuntu tried, not sure why that did not take on. Not much of a droid user, my HTC (with real keyboard) is in storage, using a simple Nokia. No windows here of course for security reasons :-) Do have many different versions of Linux in many different partitions on may computers... Auto update? No Way! I see software as a part of the hardware, once you have a working system do not fix it! New features, but really not much is new since win-3.1 and trumpet winsock, now is it?, when Billy the Gates stated that internet was really not important. OK sorry for the rant / tangent.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Jan Panteltje wrote in news:qcfs60$p7f$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

Latency is a problem with ALL satellite internet service. So for 'real time' like the game player want, it is a very bad thing... MAJOR 'ping times'.

Military? Unlikely... other than NSA style data grabs and 'oversight'.

It would make a great compliment to the GPS system too, inasmuch as a person needing emergency assistance would ALWAYS be able to send UP a sitress signal to such a system and it be received.

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

FWIW, The building permit on the pole for the 5G antenna/system near my home had a value of $24,140. Mikek

Reply to
amdx

amdx wrote in news:qcgl0c$qth$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

The permit price, or the structure/property value declaration?

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

Value of structure/property, it a pretty much standard telephone pole with the hardware on it.

Here's a picture of both.

Mikek

Reply to
amdx

cars being electric.

People who talk about the grid not being adequate for charging electric car s usually know zero about charging electric cars. I don't know where every one in this group lives, but every place I am familiar with is not running at peak generating capacity 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Electric cars h ave a huge advantage of being charged at times that are optimal for the use r or the electrical provider. The only time you can't charge them is when they are being driven.

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Reply to
Rick C

Check the difference between day and night consumption in your country. This difference is available for charging EVs in the night. Divide the difference with the number of EVs to get the maximum charging power available for each car on average. Assume you get 1 kW.

The off-peak power is available for 10-16 hours, thus 10-16 kWh is available each day. Depending on average commuting distances in your country on average, this should be just enough.

Reply to
upsidedown

On a sunny day (Mon, 27 May 2019 21:17:55 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Rick C wrote in :

Much of an illusion. I have a day-night tariff meter, and the night usages is only a bit less than the day usage, Night is cheaper but most is taxes here. On top of that very few people in for example cities have a charging point near their home, or even a parking place.

But that is not even the point, just add all the power in kW needed to replace all combustion type cars by electric. This is from the UK situation:

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page 31 up Technological issues Electricity grid impacts 'Worst case' is normal engineering practice, politicians carrying vacuum thing that never happens.

Anyways, as you will have so much time waiting at a charging station you can use that to google yerselves :-)

5000 miles, he was 5000 miles away from Ohm
Reply to
Jan Panteltje

ll cars

cars

yone

t

ave

they

t near their home,

You are right. Most of what you say is an illusion. It doesn't matter if not everyone can charge their car at home today. There are a huge number o f people who can and they will buy EVs. Then as they become more and more common places with poor electric access for EVs will start to provide acces s and in 10 or 15 years everyone will be able to charge their EVs at home.

But I understand how many people can't get their heads around this. It is a very different way of thinking from gas powered smoke belchers. Having t o drive the car to a filling station every few days is a PITA and eventuall y even the thickest will catch on when they find they are among the very fe w left pumping gas and breathing the fumes.

ging-point

df

Sorry, your writing is every bit as cryptic as your drawings... I really d on't know what you are getting at.

Are you talking about this on page 27?

" Financial Times article claimed that the UK?s generation capacity would need to increase by 70%.107 During our inquiry it has become clear that such concerns are overblown"

Yes, it would appear that at least over the next 10 to 20 years there would need to be no additional capacity added to grids to allow EVs to charge at appropriate times. The most adaptation that is likely to be needed is to have coordinated charging on EVs so they don't all start charging at 7 PM w hen arriving at home. Instead they should be coordinated to spread the ele ctrical load through the night allowing the generation equipment to continu e to run at high capacity all night.

can use that to google yerselves

Today I had dinner while I charged on my way back from Fredneck. Mmmmm.... But no time to dawdle. It has to be a quick meal.

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Reply to
Rick C

Ah yes, the fabled "smart grid" which will solve all problems. The problem is it doesn't exist, and there are too many incompatible visions of what it might be.

There are too many possible screwup mechanisms w.r.t. getting to the nirvana of a smart grid. Even the simple concept of smart meters proved too difficult for the UK industry and regulators.

But maybe smart grids will arrive after I'm dead; it is worthy objective.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to fuel my car at, IIRC, 0.5MW.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

On a sunny day (Tue, 28 May 2019 01:27:31 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Rick C wrote in :

That was my point.

Makes no sense, if you spread charging then the charging times will be shorter and the current must then be higher. Net advantage gained : zero. That is compared to everybody charging all night long at a lower current. kWh

5 times a day dinner / charging makes you fat...
Reply to
Jan Panteltje

The "smart grid" is your idea, not mine. This is a very simple problem to solve. "We can rebuild him. We have the technology. We can make him better than he was. Better...stronger...faster."

Again, the "smart grid" is a problem you are bringing to the party. If you don't like it, please leave it at home next time.

Hmmm... until you are dead I guess. I only wish people would put stuff like this on their tombstones so their descendants could get a laugh at the things they believed. "from my cold, dead hands"...

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Reply to
Rick C

harging-point

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eration capacity

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You didn't make it very well.

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orter and the current must then be higher.

Again, you really aren't clear with what you say. Why didn't you just say what you meant?

Still, your idea is not of much value because the charging rate is set by t he car with the charger only imposing it maximum capability. I suppose tha t can be modified, but instead of turning the whole system on it's head, wh ich still would not address the issue of the EV owner plugging in his car w hen they get home (still during the evening peak usage for the most part). A much simpler way to address it is to control *when* the cars charge.

The Tesla network already has communications between the car and the billin g and other systems. They presently exercise some level of charging contro ls although the driver can override them. It would be a simple matter to l ayer a similar capability on home charging with coordination by the utility to minimize overloading capacity.

The part I am worried about is how this will impact the more local distribu tion of electricity. While the generation capacity is spare a various time s during the day, it is not clear to me that the residential distribution n etwork will have the local capacity to support every home adding 6 kW or mo re to each home. The transformers are often shared and each home can easil y add 6 or 12 kW to their nightly load which is already high during cold, w inter months with heat pumps switching on resistive heating.

My concern is that local utilities will use the EV issue as a reason to jus tify upping their rates or tack on special charges for expansion of the loc al distribution network... more than is really needed if EV charging is coo rdinated.

ou can

...

More nonsense. I have no idea what you are trying to say. Looks like a jo ke, but most of what you write looks like you are trying to make jokes. I usually don't get them, so I'm never sure.

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  Rick C. 

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Reply to
Rick C

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