DNA animation

Which of those things are not true for viruses? I suppose respiration maybe. But otherwise they do all of the above. You need to look at their full life cycle and not just the spore state.

The fact that they usurp a host cell to do these things doesn't mean they aren't happening. Viruses are parasitic and like many parasites they can not complete their life cycle without infecting the host.

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  Rick C. 

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Rick C
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any

tputs

ircuit features.

The task was to distinguish 1 and 10 kHz square waves with no clock provide d.

That could have been overcome by letting the design evolve in a population of chips. Same with voltage and temperature. Better yet, do it in a simul ation that includes worst case timing. But this was not intended to be a pr actical technique in any way. They were exploring "intrinsic hardware evol ution".

From wikipedia,

The concept was pioneered by Adrian Thompson at the University of Sussex, E ngland, who in 1996 evolved a tone discriminator using fewer than 40 progra mmable logic gates and no clock signal in a FPGA. This is a remarkably smal l design for such a device and relied on exploiting peculiarities of the ha rdware that engineers normally avoid. For example, one group of gates has n o logical connection to the rest of the circuit, yet is crucial to its func tion.[1]

[1]
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I assume by "gates" they mean LUTs. They gave the circuit 100 XC6216 3 inp ut LUTs to work in. The final circuit used just 16 LUTs along with 5 other s which didn't seem to be connected, but still had to remain active for the circuit to operate.

Interesting...

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  Rick C. 

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Rick C

Since we know sparking primordial gasses makes amino acids, why did it become common decades after that discovery to speculate about origins from comets or something?

Reply to
Tom Del Rosso

Why wouldn't it?

We don't have /all/ the answers, and making /falsifiable/ speculations is at the core of the scientific method.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

A lot of the liquid water now on the Earth arrived in a later cometary bombardment after the crust had solidified and chemistry in dense star forming nebulae is capable of making quite a lot of complex molecules.

It isn't that far fetched that at least some of the precursors were made in a hard UV illuminated environment as the solar system was forming. A lot of simple organic chemicals have been seen in star forming regions.

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Glycine was first detected in 2003 (Wiki list is out of date):

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Curious C60 and C70 "dust" spectra had mystified astronomers for many decades before the pure carbon compounds were found on Earth.

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Regards, 
Martin Brown
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Martin Brown

A creator doesn't make "it" easier because "it" is "questioning", and they don't ask questions anyway, which is another way of saying they don't think. Someone else asked them a question and they answered, "a creator", but don't realize that they are begging another question. It's a shame that thinking people were involved in this process but they were outnumbered.

Reply to
Tom Del Rosso

If it's impossible to have complex assemblies without intelligence, maybe it's also impossible for our intelligence to emerge from a mere complex assembly. Unless intelligence is something intrinsic to nature, which explains both.

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Tom Del Rosso

I sure hope the Watchmaker book is better than The Selfish Gene. I didn't finish that when it became obvious that he was going to keep repeating a simple concept that deserved a short article at best.

Dawkins is an avid angry atheist first and secondarily a biologist.

He should go into his lab and cook up some self-replicating RNA from inorganic slush. But that would be intelligent design, wouldn't it?

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

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John Larkin

I've ordered it. I couldn't finish all of The Selfisg Gene. I hope his style, and especially content, had improved some.

What I'm arguing here is *against* emotional baggage. The history of biology is punctuated by the mainstream asserting that things are impossible, that turned out to be so.

Nobody here but me will even consider anything but self-replicating RNA crawling out of promordial soup and going on to invent all the stuff in the video. They can't allow themselves.

None of these guys seem to design electronics either. That also requires allowing ideas to happen.

That's OK, I know that I live in a world of people who refuse to think. At least they can write purchase orders.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

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John Larkin

Sure, but a pile of TTL gates on a table don't spontaneously orgainze themselves into a computer running Jill of the Jungle under MS DOS. The big problem isn't evolution, it's the origin of the incredible cellular mechanisms around DNA. People shout that they are the same issue, to avoid dealing with the obvious problem of origin.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

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John Larkin

They don't reproduce either.

Macro structures of organs and tissues are pretty complex too, so if evolution can explain them...

At the intermediate scale there is the system of brain cells. Protiens aren't more complex than that.

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Tom Del Rosso

People like him have made atheism a dogma, when dogma should be what they are against. They think that telling people - dogmatically - to be atheists will make them smart, as if because reason led them to atheism, then atheism will lead other people to reason. That's so non-sequitur it's bizarre.

That kind of "education" has led a lot of young people to be very smug about their intelligence even though they are stupid.

What they should do is just teach people to think, and that has to start very young.

Not if it's just from stirring a pot and giving it energy. We got as far as amino acids doing that, and it took a matter of hours. Maybe it just needs more time.

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Tom Del Rosso

See, it's an even bigger problem.

But it can't. It's all hand waving. There are biological processes that have 20 steps, where any one step going wrong wrecks the whole process, and none of the sub-sequences have any known function. So how could that evolve?

"Evolution" is a kind of steak sauce that people dump on everything.

How are visual memories, images, stored and retrieved in a fraction of a second? Simple proteins!

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

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John Larkin

Accidental origin fans could cook up self-replicating RNA in their labs, and then do the math to demonstrate that it could have happened accidentally.

Some people have done the latter and gotten preposterous numbers. Impossible cubed.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

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John Larkin

That sounds mystical, but maybe our universe is mystical. Some things about QM are seriously weird.

"God does not play dice with the universe."

- A Einstein

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

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John Larkin

In a universe where energy is equivalent to matter and information is equivalent to energy it shouldn't be surprising.

What is the relation between information and intelligence? There is a relation but can we define it precisely?

You see, it's no more mystical than physics in general.

Reply to
Tom Del Rosso

Nonsense and prejudice. There's little point reading his work starting from there.

He's an evolutionary biologist who doesn't kowtow to theists. That's all. The anger comes from people who don't like their beliefs challenged.

Cheers

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Clive
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Clive Arthur

on

tion

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be

fied.

rated

even

Dear god, this many starts a thread marveling at the complexity of the DNA machine and then complains when people don't agree with him that it all mus t have been created... but worse in this off topic thread complains about p eople who aren't here to discuss electronics!!!

Isn't that the true definition of a Troll?!!!

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  Rick C. 

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Rick C

You mean because you don't understand it, it can't be true?

Tell us what biological process you are talking about and maybe we can help you understand how it could have evolved?

I'd be willing to bet your basic premise that the 20 steps all had to be fully functional at once to be at all useful is flawed. You already tried to apply that concept to the human eye and failed.

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  Rick C. 

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Rick C

I didn't finish "The Selfish Gene", nor some of his other stuff!

OTOH, his "The Ancestor's Tale" is a good reference book which can be dipped into anywhere - an d you'll usually find an interesting snippet.

We all have emotional baggage, whether or not we acknowledge it. Your emotional baggage appears to be a comfort blanket related to an omnipotent being designing us.

I don't think that's the case; they don't see any need for your comfort blanket, and think it raises more questions than it answers.

OTOH, they are still looking for possibilities and evidence for the bits we don't yet understand.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

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