DMMs with decent current resolution?

Apropos of the 'Digital Multimeters' thread, I've just been running into the problem of getting enough current resolution on my DMMs. The dedicated current ranges tend to have resolutions in the tens of nanoamps or worse, which isn't adequate.

Of course the classical trick is to use the lowest DCV range for current sensing. Most DMMs have a 10 Mohm input resistance on their voltage ranges, so a 4.5-digit meter on its hundreds-of-millivolts range has a current resolution of

10 uV/10 Mohm = 1 pA, far better than on their dedicated current ranges.

That works perfectly well, but it's a mild pain with photodiodes, which are sensitive to burden voltage. You can put in a parallel resistance to keep the burden voltage low enough that the photodiode's forward conduction doesn't cause measurement errors. (In practice, 100-200 mV won't cause significant errors with a silicon photodiode in most cases.)

My Keithley 177A has nice low-current ranges, and I also have their models 610C, 602, and 410 analogue picoammeters; I can also easily slap together all sorts of custom current amps.

In testing products for patent lawsuits, however, it's super helpful to have instruments from well-known manufacturers that just read what you're trying to measure directly. Today I was measuring nanoamp level currents from green-filtered photodiodes, and it would have been more convenient to have an actual current range with resolution down to 100 pA or 1 nA.

Suggestions?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

http://electrooptical.net 
http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply to
Phil Hobbs
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Keysight 34465A ? I think 1uA range has 6.5 digits. I don't know about stability of the last digits, though.

--
mikko
Reply to
Mikko OH2HVJ

Hi Phil, Look at Tektronix/Keithley DMM7510. Not exactly cheap, but 1pA resolution with maximum 15mV burden voltage. Yours, Robert Lacoste

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Reply to
Robert Lacoste

Most of my DVMs have infinite impedance on the 200mV range, and many have infinite impedance on the V range. So you can use 100M or 1G sense resistors.

You could always throw in a battery-powered opamp.

--
 Thanks, 
    - Win
Reply to
Winfield Hill

I keep around a set of Pomona dual banana plugs with added parts: short, 1K, 1M, 1G, 1T ohms. My old Keithley electrometer does pA but has one side grounded, so sometimes I want to float a shunt and a DVM to measure current.

I think Phil prefers a single, traceable instrument.

--

John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

Yeah, it isn't hard to finesse with a parallel resistor or a slow TIA, as you say. Or I could use the analogue output of the Keithley 610C,

602, or 410, all of which I have.

It's just easier to explain to a jury that I used an ammeter to measure amps. The case is about automatic control of display backlights, so I'm using green-filtered photodiodes (intended for lux measurement) to measure both the ambient and display brightness. That way it's really apples-to-apples. I already have to explain to them how the photocurrent and brightness correlate.

There's a lot of money at stake, so it's worth doing it right. (I ordered another Keithley 177 for $60, and will check its calibration before using it.) That will reduce the amount of plugging and unplugging I have to do.

I thought about some of the higher-end meters suggested by the assembled multitude, but I already have a couple of HP 3456A 6.5 digit DMMs for voltage and resistance, so all I'd really gain would be a current input and a fancy display.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

http://electrooptical.net 
http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Maybe you need a uCurrent?

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Steve

Reply to
sroberts6328

That's just a simple TIA optimized for super low speed. It's useful and all, but in this instance it's one more obstacle a jury has to overcome to understand a (very compelling) line of evidence in what is to them a very unfamiliar field. A name-brand ammeter measuring amps in the normal way is the ticket.

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

http://electrooptical.net 
http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

I've been happy using Keithley 480 (digital, but has analog pickoff); the more modern 485 might be suitable as well. Unlike a DMM, it's usually not tied up with other tasks when I need a small-current measurement.

Reply to
whit3rd

whit3rd wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

He said "resolution" (in the title), which to me would mean "precise accuracy".

"small current" is a different animal when simple environmental factors can easily change a reading. That is why one usually will see a task specific meter made just for reading very tiny flows accurately.

I do not think that any simple multimeters would do well in those 'ranges' as far as accuracy goes.

Lab bench meters likely can with the right setup.

There are actual 'picoammeter' instruments out there. The one I used was analog. I think it had a taught band movement in it.

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

Would it not be better to obtain and use a photometer, to make it even simpler for them?

Reply to
Chris Jones

Hey, EEVblog is a widely-known brand name by now. You can safely assert that to a jury.

--
 Thanks, 
    - Win
Reply to
Winfield Hill

Not really. The patent talks about photocurrent, for one thing, and for another, using the same type of ambient light sensing photodiode for both the ambient and display brightness is a nice intuitive idea that also makes physical sense.

Besides, a 2.5 mm square PD is easy to mount right next to the ambient light sensor for the ambient reading (ensuring good tracking) and easy to tape upside-down on top of a full-brightness area on the display to measure its brightness in a repeatable way.

Photometer heads are bigger and clunkier, so that would be hard to do.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Reply to
pcdhobbs

Sure, every pipe fitter and school teacher knows ol' Squeaky Dave. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Reply to
pcdhobbs

pcdhobbs wrote

No idea what it is all about, but if you want to track display brigtness versus background brightness, and that is likely into the direction you look, then simpe video camera, processing, mask out background, mask out bright spot (brightesr spot perhasp) in display, compare if it tracks or not. | []() || | cam display | | background tronix

?
Reply to
<698839253X6D445TD

;)

As I've said for thirty years, "A software guy thinks that the way to do any optical thing is to point a camera at it and crunch the daylights out of the resulting crappy data."

You can make nice linear measurements with the right camera, but ordinary video cameras have so much auto aperture, auto integration time, gamma correction, colour gamut optimization, yadda yadda, that linear measurements don't happen by accident.

Photodiodes for me all the way.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

http://electrooptical.net 
http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Hi Phil. (I trust everyone had a merry Christmas) DMM in current mode and a photodiode is my fav poor mans light meter, very simple. I've got an older fluke 87 in the lab. I thought it had a 10 uA scale and minimum resolution of 1 nA... but I'm not in the lab this week and may be mistaken. We've also go a new keysight DMM... but again that will have to wait till next week for me to check. Is there any time crunch?

George H. (ps unrelated, we got our first robot (Roomba 690) for xmas.. fun... though it can spend a lot of time underneath the couch trying to find a way out.) (Or maybe it is doing something else under there :^)

GH

Reply to
George Herold

Software guy? I designed my first video camera in 1968. That got me an engineering job in the national network.

Tell me about cameras,.,

Bull.

Take a 30 $ or so CMOS, and process the data.

1% 40dB dynamic range is the minimum you should get with reasonable lighting.

Bit more expensive CCD camera and take a few screenshots (per second?) in HD.

That is your choice, those cameras have more than one :-)

Think about is, few hundred thousand photo diodes all exactly the same, doing the work for you looking at your whateveritis.

Software did not exist when I started with video. Neither did sensor chips, And even then with plumbicons we could do what you talk about now, in color.

:-)

Reply to
<698839253X6D445TD

40 dB is pathetic.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

http://electrooptical.net 
http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Both have their uses. When I was at the FEL (free electron laser) we kept vidicons alive for imaging the electron beam. Other camera's died a quick death in the harsh radiation environment.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

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