CO detector quit after five years, why?

Even though you might be a competent engineer - a CO alarm mucked about with as frequently as you'd need to do that, is unlikely to be reliable for long!

Reply to
Ian Field
Loading thread data ...

If you're feeling incensed, you can test your CO detector with an incense wand.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

I've actually had an allergic reaction to one of those - can't remember what scent it was supposed to be, but didn't like it much right from the start.

Reply to
Ian Field

How do you know the ones with an expiry alarm don't do it that way already?

Reply to
Ian Field

The one I gave a relative must be getting on for 5 years ago, its only had one set of batteries - its when new batteries were fitted, we realised the beeping was the expiry alarm.

Reply to
Ian Field

I am not going to muck with it but if it was designed right it would have a more reasonable end-of-life indicator.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

Lasse found the manual and it says that it has a fixed timer. So even if it had a current detector (which I sure hope it does) it signals end-of-life even if the fuel cell is still good. Not nice.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

It's sad when products are designed in such a non-serviceable way. Why not make the sensors replaceable and sell them for, say, half the price of a new detector? Environmentally conscious consumers would go for that.

I just experienced something even more saddening. A professional medical machine that sits here at my lab, costs in the high four digits, some part in the firmware doesn't want to come on. Looks like it somehow lost the activation key for that. So I called [insert large med device manufacturer here], gave them the service ticket data, the very friendly service folks dug around. "Oh, I am very sorry, this series was discontinued in 2007 and it is now out of support, all activation keys are gone". After a mere seven years! If that's not an enticement to buy cheap Asian stuff instead of buying American then I don't know what is.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

But, I think we are talking about a wet electrolytic cell here, the CO sensor. If it has a 5 year lifetime without the instrument being powered, then having the timer only run when plugged in is not good.

I know we had some other trace gas sensors with wet cells that had something like a 6 month lifetime. There was a tab you pulled that released the electrolyte. I opened one up after it expired, and it was a real MESS inside.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

could be something like this:

formatting link

the 350mW heater would explain why it needs to be plugged in

-Lasse

Reply to
Lasse Langwadt Christensen

I wasn't aware of the Parkinson's connection. I'll look into that.

How many are unplugged because high humidity was causing false alarms? How many failed to activate because of low humidity or exposure to various volatiles?

Assumption, the mother of all screwups.

I decided a CO alarm was a good idea. While shopping for a CO detector and a better smoke alarm (that can be disarmed when cooking or running the woodburner) I asked various friends and neighbors to show me their alarms so I could play with it.

My test was simple. A gallon jug collects exhaust gas from my Coleman emergency generator (which has no catalytic converter). Plenty of CO in there. Cardboard manifold over the CO detector. My guess is about

500 ppm in the jug. It takes a while to respond, so I let the test run for at least 15 minutes.

I've only tested 6 devices, so this is very preliminary. Two of the devices were well past the 5 year expiration point, showed no indication of being expired, and didn't respond to any level of CO applied. None of the 6 devices had a battery backup system. It seems that the big problem is getting rid of all the old expired CO detectors and replace them with newer models that provide an indication that they've expired.

Of the 4 devices that actually responded, only one went off just before I was ready to give up at 15 minutes. The others failed to respond at 15 minutes, so I took two of them home, and re-ran the test for an hour. At 500 ppm, both finally tripped after about 30 mins. These two were the only ones that complied with the California Carbon Monoxide Poisoning Prevention Act of 2010.

The 4th had a surprise. After 1 hr exposure, and nothing happened, I assumed it was defective. So, I removed the manifold and gas jug. As soon as it hit normal air, the alarm activated. I retested the device and found it did the same thing after 20 minutes. No clue what was happening but this is obviously not normal operation. I'll take it up with the manufacturer as time permits. Meanwhile, my neighbor is waiting for me to find something that works before buying a replacement.

Score card: 2 were expired and didn't work 1 worked as expected. 2 were current, but took forever to trip. 1 was current but defective.

I'm beginning to wonder just how useful these devices are even if they work as advertised. Here's approximately the concentration needed to trigger a UL listed alarm: ...how much CO does a UL listed alarm allow you to breathe? 30 ppm for up to 30 days 70 ppm for up to 4 hours 150 ppm for up to 50 minutes 400 ppm for up to 15 minutes That's fairly close to what I guess(tm) the devices that actually worked were doing in my test. I have the makers and model numbers at home, but I think it best to wait until I do some more testing and provide a larger sample before drawing too many conclusions. I'll also spare you my rant on the psychology of safety devices. While far from complete or accurate, my very limited tests seems to show that the CO detector is more of a talisman to ward off evil spirits than a proper gas alarm.

Yet another CO alarm horror story: Out of the seven that never went off or went off late, five were at least 14-years-old. Two were at least seven-years-old. Fire officials say you should replace yours every 3 to 5 years.

More numbers: Unintentional CO exposure accounts for an estimated 15,000 emergency department visits and 500 unintentional deaths in the United States each year.

500 preventable deaths instead of 2000 sounds more reasonable.

Granted, that the $5/year cost for a single CO alarm is cheap insurance against a potentially fatal accident. With 118 million households in the US, that's $590 million/year, not counting the disposal costs of the non-recyclable alarms. That would be a cost of $1.18 million per life saved, or about $40,000 per ER visit. I'm wondering whether a public information program informing home owners that running the emergency power generator indoors is a bad idea. Maybe subsidize furnace inspections. That should get rid of most deaths and ER visits.

As was popular prior to the Y2K date bug non-event, "It's not the odds but the risks". Right.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Cost-benefit analysis? Can you imagine what would happen to the federal government if they had to apply it to every program?

Reply to
krw

house.

yeh, how many deaths from terrorist attacks have prevented by TSAs

7 billion a year? not to mention the 4 trillion dollars wars

-Lasse

Reply to
Lasse Langwadt Christensen

Or the 15T spent keeping people in poverty.

Reply to
krw

Colorimetric gas detection tubes and pump: About $3/tube.

Yep. [Insert rant on unrepairable Apple products here.]

There are different types of CO sensors with varying life times. The current commodity sensor is a "fuel-cell electrochemical" type, that is very sensitive and less prone to false alarms than previous models. The catch is that they have a limited 3-5 year life.

You can get 7-10 years from a semiconductor sensor, but that requires lots of power to run the heater, which usually means it has to be plugged into AC power and can't run on batteries.

For vampires, there's the biomimetic CO sensor made from artificial blood (hemoglobin) which is fairly immune to false alarms, but only lasts 2-3 years. At this time, none of the detectors are guaranteed to last >10 years.

I suppose that the authorities know that todays CO sensor technology sucks and that a short self-destruct time delay will give the industry time to provide something that actually works:

Residential Carbon Monoxide Detector Failure Rates in the United States (Oct 2011)

You will be safe, even if it kills you and emptys your bank account.

As a manufacture, it's not a good thing to be competing with your older products. We discussed the warranty timer chip idea here in the past. It's time will come, probably very soon.

2007 is the correct end-o-support date to remain legal in California per Civil Code Section 1793.03. (about half way down the page) 1793.03 (b) Every manufacturer making an express warranty with respect to an electronic or appliance product described in subdivision (h), (i), (j), or (k) of Section 9801 of the Business and Professions Code, with a wholesale price to the retailer of one hundred dollars ($100) or more, shall make available to service and repair facilities sufficient service literature and functional parts to effect the repair of a product for at least seven years after the date a product model or type was manufactured, regardless of whether the seven-year period exceeds the warranty period for the product. While California requires parts and support for 7 years, most other states only require 5 years.

Today, you don't really own a product. You have a 5 or 7 year implied license to use it through the benevolence of the manufacturer with the approval of the government on the understanding that after 5 or 7 years, it becomes eWaste, whether it is working or not.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

There's a lot more. Organ damage, compromised bladder control, impaired vision, among others. The problem is that there's a lot higher number than officially known. Because many people think they just had a dizzy spell or were simply very tired that day, not knowing that they escaped a deadly situation by coincidence. It never gets reported because there was no hospital visit. Some people might have such situations over and over again, never realizing what's really going on.

Not possible in public buildings and rental places where the law requires CO detectors. They usually need to be hardwired.

Those must have been real dinosaurs. I doubt you could legally sell one these days sans backup battery. Ours have that.

That doesn't look too good. Known brands?

Plus countless more that weren't reported because people didn't know it is CO that cause aunt Lizzy's frequent fainting spell near the bathroom where the old gas heater is.

And that's what could easily be fixed, by using exchangeable cartridges. Just like any decent cordless phone can be rejuvenated with a new battery. Ours run through 3-4 sets until the phones are worn down to the threads. I would never buy one with a non-changeable battery, yet with CO detectors we have no choice.

That's not counting the longterm effect and possibly later a longterm nursing care that wouldn't have been necessary if aunt Lizzy had known what it really was that caused her repeated fainting spells.

It is certainly not. Many people have no clue about CO poisoning.

Partially, yes. But I've seen people dragging a kerosene heater into the garage and have a party in there. Crazy.

I've never heard that one before :-)

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

Sure, but the common justification is that it's justified, even if it only saves one life. As Joerg suggests, it might be your or my life. I can't debate such logic. Once cost is removed from the equation, the justifications for various programs become purely emotional and sometimes illogical. Even worse, if nothing bad happens, it's considered evidence that the program is working rather than the program is ineffective and useless. That also tends to make the products and program permanent.

The catch is that such emotional justifications only work if the product, program, or plan actually functions. I'm questioning whether CO alarms actually function as advertised. If not, they're a placebo or talisman against evil.

In the distant past, I worked for an insurance actuary tasked with putting a price on people and body parts. That took some mental adjustments on my part before I became accustomed to the concept that EVERYTHING has its price tag.

It's like that with CO poisoning victims. Whether we're saving airline passengers from terrorists or homeowners from CO inhalation, there's a cost involved. Setting the price tag isn't easy, but it is possible. At some threshold, it no longer becomes worthwhile to apply preventive measures. Setting that threshold also isn't easy, but is also possible. But before either can be done, one must accept the necessity of putting prices on such things, which is NOT being done. Instead, we have degenerated to an emotional appeal to save every possible victim of CO poisoning through the purchase of what I consider to possibly be marginally effective CO detectors. $5/year per alarm is probably well below everyone's threshold of financial pain, but only if the alarms actually work as advertised.

There's also the psychology of safety involved. (I couldn't resist throwing that in). If you're the owner of a safety device, or are guarded by the TSA, you think that you're safe. No harm can come to you as long as you have your magic talisman or guard. What that does is make people careless. I've seen more than a few industrial accidents where workers think that all the interlocks and safety gadgets allow them to do all manner of dangerous and stupid things without getting injured. I have a suspicion that CO alarms work the same way. "The old furnace is safe as long as the alarm doesn't sound" or something similar.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

The only thing more permanent than a permanent government program is a temporary government program.

Reply to
krw

Probably worse: Michael Dolan at the University of Kentucky Medical Center, found that 23.6% of those diagnosed by emergency room doctors with the flu actually had CO poisoning. Dr. Paul Heckerling, University of Illinois hospital in Chicago, found 15% of those with headaches had CO poisoning. I guess it's an epidemic.

Coupled with the 12-15% diagnostic error rate of the medical profession for those victims where the symptoms are severe enough to require medical attention, I certainly see a problem. Even if every patient that exhibits remotely similar symptoms were issued a free CO alarm, it is likely that they will ignore its warning claiming that it's producing false alarms.

What methinks should be done is exactly that, but not an CO detector or alarm. Instead a CO sniffer/meter should be loaned to the patient, to have them sniff the environment looking for sources of CO. Something like this: That will both identify if there is a problem and hopefully identify the source. The doctors office can insure that it's working and not expired. They should also be issued the same CO "badges" used by aircraft pilots to detect CO concentration. I have one taped to the wall near my wood burner. It won't save my posterior if the wood burner suddenly turns evil and starts filling the house with CO, but it will detect a potential problem. The catch is that it's not spectacularly sensitive. It will respond to 35 ppm in 8 hrs and 100 ppm in 1 hr. However, that's good enough for anything that might kill someone.

Some detailed history on CO detectors and sensors:

True. In 5 to 10 years all the AC powered CO detectors will have hopefully expired and replaced by one's that hopefully will work reliably. Then, we might be able to talk about whether the public is adequately protected by CO meters that have never been tested with real CO gas. The level of trust is truly amazing.

I think so. I have the makers and models in my notes at home, somewhere. I must admit that only 3 out of the 6 were current (i.e. not expired). Since they didn't have backup batteries, I presume that they were not compliant with the Calif Carbon Monoxide Poisoning Prevention Act.

Incidentally, I never did buy a new CO alarm and am still using an expired antique and the detector card hanging on the wall.

It's possible, but if Aunt Lizzy is older, she is probably under the care of a physician, who would presumably have a suspicion as to the cause.

I used to have a rule-of-thumb that on any design, if I cut it in half, I double the cost. While not exactly that radical for a replaceable sensor, the sensor does carry the bulk of the cost of a CO detector. I would guess(tm) that if it carried about half the cost of the integrated unit, it might conceivably sell for about the same price as the entire integrated assembly. There's also the problem of cleaning and battery replacement, both of which are respectively difficult and proscribed by law.

What I find disgusting is the lack of a standard footprint, so that 10 years downstream, the entire assembly could be replaced by a plug compatible device without the necessity of performing a new installation. Ceiling mounted AC powered smoke detectors seem to have settled on a standard, but apparently that makes it too easy for customers to swap devices between different manufacturers.

Standards are a good thing, every company should have one.

Think quid pro quo. The CO alarm manufacturers didn't like the idea of a 10 year lifetime because they would sell fewer devices. So, to placate the irate manufacturers, the legislature decided to make the device throw away, thus requiring that a new unit be purchased. Conspiracy theories are so much fun.

Also, I'm fairly certain that at some time in the next 10 years, the manufacturers will have depleted their inventory of 10 year devices, the legislature will mandate a 15 or 20 year throw away device, making everything you now own obsolete.

Like I mumbled. Issue some cheap CO detector cards and send Aunt Lizzy home:

For those that can understand, education is necessary. For those that can't understand, no amount of education will help, so for them, we have CO alarms. Retch.

That explains the local brain damaged teenagers. I did the kerosene heater trick when I was younger while camping. I didn't die of CO poisoning but came close when the canvas tent caught fire.

Incidentally, cigarette smog contains about 20 ppm CO, which should produce the required headaches and brain damage.

I'll see if I can find the original reference. The logic was that although the odds of something going wrong was fairly minimal, the effects of anything going wrong on Y2K were so massive and far reaching, that it was necessary to ignore all the calculations and concentrate on spending money to replace non-Y2K compliant computers. To the computer illiterate, it sure sounded good, so they bought new computers in huge numbers. After Y2K arrived, and nothing happened, sales of new machines tanked.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Yep, it's pretty bad. There's a reason why I prefer electric ranges and ovens over gas versions. RVs and travel trailers are also a serious concern because typically everything high-energy in them operates with propane. Ours even had a propane-operated fridge.

Unfortunately there isn't much that can be done about it until there is the first case of a CO poisoning diognosis in the family and the doc is smart enough to ask them exactly and in great detail what activities happened in the house that day. IOW when mom or dad experience their "Oh s..t!" moment.

That would be a logistical challenge and too expensive. Because if the HMO won't cover it nobody else will.

This sentence is key when looking at the total number of cases, quote "Even though many survive they are most often left with diminished mental capacity and other long term symptoms". Some will never know what really caused grandma's dementia and chalk it up to normal progression towards advanced age.

They do work. We had an alarm come on when the wood stove installers had to open a larger hole in the old fireplace heatilator, using gas welding gear. Could not smell a thing but ... *BEEEEP* ... *BEEEEP* ...

That card isn't going to wake you up at night when the gas boiler decides to "reroute".

Very unlikely. He'll probably do the usual, prescribe an assortment of pills and move on to the next patient.

Not really anymore:

formatting link

This is the retail price, they are lower in bulk. Of course you'd have to make sure it has the required certs but there's plenty of competition out there because the detectors aren't only mandated in the US.

Cleaning is usually not needed unless in a very filthy environment. For batteries there is the low bat display and beep just like with smoke detectors.

Meantime, smart consumers make themselves adapter plates :-)

That would indeed be a bad conspiracy, if it happened that way.

It'll have to be grandfathered for rental places and the like.

Aunt Lizzy can't make head or tails out of those. She can barely read Sunday's paper.

I've heard people say it does.

That sounds exactly like what we have now with "global warming", except on a more massive financial scale. A huge gravy train.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.