Chemistry- Rust Remover

According to wikipedia, denatonium benzoate is a bitterant to prevent accidental ingestion.

Hydroflouric acid attacks rust but not the underlying metal as much as other acids.

This found on the web: "Acid corrodes metal and releases gaseous hydrogen, leaving a salt behind. The kind of salt depends on the acid and on the metal. As far as I know, only hydrofluoric acid would be able to eat rust; its byproducts would be iron fluoride and water."

Another web source said consuming a few ounces of a low concentration (like 6% or 10%) of hydroflouric acid can cause a heart attack by interfering with calcium metabolism, and contact with skin can produce deep burns that don't show up until the next day.

This link has MSDSs for various Whink products:

Hydrofluoric acid eats glass. E.g., most other acids (in a lab) can easily be stored in glass bottles (with ground glass stoppers). But

E.g., if you want to make a "custom" monogrammed beer mug (etc.), paint the negative image on the item with resist. Then, expose to HF (fumes) until the desired degree of "etch".

I looked up HYDROFLUORIC ACID.

Dangers of Hydrofluoric Acid

Hydrofluoric Acid is one of the most dangerous acids known. It needs to be treated differently than even strong acids like Sulfuric and Hydrochloric.

Hydrofluoric Acid is an acid like no other. It is so potent that contact with it may not even be noticed until long after serious damage has been done. Even very strong acids, and mixtures of acids, like Aqua Forte and Aqua Regia, do not have the power to cause death and injury in the way that Hydrofluoric Acid can

Gee whiz, I think I'll take another shower! I wonder what the % is in the rust remover? While I was on the computer, I had a little burning on my thigh, I looked down and saw what I thought was blood on my Khaki pants, I pulled them off thinking I'd see a cut or scrape, but saw nothing. So I took a shower and washed well and flooded the area with lots of water. I'd like to think the stain on my pants is blood, but if it is, I don't know were it came from. Could it be that HYDROFLUORIC ACID turns khaki blood red? Ok, just ran that test, nope, so it must be blood. And the burning... Hope to see you in the morning, Mikek

Hmm, this site says it has HYDROFLUORIC ACID

Maybe I'll awake in the morning. Thanks, for your input, Mikek

E.

Fe2O3 + 6 HF = 2FeF3+ 3H20

Hydrofluoric acid is a very strong acid. It's virtue in this situation is t hat Ferric Fluoride is very water soluble, just like Ferric Chloride, and w ashes away as soon as it forms.

The down side of hydrofluoric acid is that it gets through the skin and dep osits fluoride ions in the flesh, which are poisonous, and cause persisting and expanding necrosis.

The Florine Laboratory at the Melbourne Chemistry Department where I did my Ph.D. had an emergency kit which included a bunch hypodermic syringes load ed with calcium allaginate (or some soluble calcium salt) and a colour rep rint of a Nature article on the consequences of fluorine burns. The colour photos in the article were - I'm told - perfectly horrible.

Anybody who got a fluorine burn was supposed to take the kit across to the local hospital (across the road from the university) and give the doctor th e kit. After the doctor had read the Nature article they'd understand the u rgency of injecting the calcium salt into the wound to immobilise the fluor ide ions as insoluble calcium fluoride, rather than have them hang around a s a persistent poison.

I don't think that any of the Fluorine Lab people ever used the kit in mu t ime - but they all looked thin and sickly ...

Go to the link I gave you and click on "Rust Stain Remover", and the PDF for the product will be downloaded. It shows HFl as an ingredient at 1.5% to 3%. As to the dangers, it doesn't give that much more information than has come up in the other posts.

extremely potent stuff, it will etch glass etc.

I'm guessing

iron oxide hydrofluiric acide makes iron flouride and water.

The denatonium is basically a flavouring to stop people drinking it! All acids taste sour, so can't see that adding a bittering agent will help much.

I've used hydrochloric acid to remove rust before. it does the trick, but it left a residue that continued to attack the steel. Hydrofluoric acid might be better in some way.

After reading the other replies I'm not sure I can add a lot. Your rust remover is only 1.5% to 3.5% HFl. So it is not hugely dangerous if you don't get a bunch of it on you and wash quickly if you get any drops.

I use a product that is 20% HCl, Hydrochloric acid which will be very similar to the stuff you are using. I am very careful when I use it and keep it off of metal or remove is quickly.

Rust is formed from the oxidation of iron. HFl or HCl is a strong acid that provides hydrogen ions that react with the oxide to reverse the oxidation reaction. Once the iron oxide is broken up it is soluble and is dissolved in the water to be flushed away.

The reactions are not overly complex.

ATE.

it is very corrosive, but it is called a weak acid

-Lasse

Concentrated phosphoric acid is a very useful rust treatment. It does not dissolve the rust away, but converts it into an insoluble phosphate (to which paint adheres very well). The iron surface is passivated against further rusting by this process.

Conc. phosphoric acid is also an excellent flux for soldering stainless steel.

It washes away easily and is non-toxic (but can burn the skin or eyes).

John

Ok, I clicked on "Rust and Iron remover" rather than "Rust Stain Remover" I might have to run an experiment and see if it will etch glass. Thanks, Mikek

The reason this came up yesterday is; I have a white cargo van that has had the yard sprinkler spray rusty water on it for a few years and it was a rusty coat on it. Someone just slightly side swiped the side of the van in the last couple days, (hit and run) and then wrote me a note in the rust, "help me never" Don't know what that means, but I tried washing the side and nothing happened, I sprayed this down the side and it's gone. I still have paint on the van this morning. :-) Mikek

that product is Whink, not wink, right? and if you pour onto glass and let sit for a day, it won't etch the glass, pretty dilute.

However, get it under your fingernails and for hours your nails will feel like they're being pulled off.

You'll have to ask Nestork what the actual reaction sequence is, but I remember vaguely some chemical charts that show the O molecule being removed from Fe by something, thus removes rust stains.

I ALWAYS neutralize with a generous wash of baking soda to rinse. Kept my auto's battery tray intact for years now.

I know, I know battery acid concntrates as it dries and is different, but acid is acid.

On Sun, 28 Sep 2014 07:58:02 -0700, RobertMacy Gave us:

Not the brown acid. Don't do the brown acid.

BRL!!

Yes.

Amazing at removing rust stains.

Mikek

Are there any easy ways to get the strong phosphoric acid? How concentrated must it be? I've actually got some stainless I was thinking about soldering and wasn't sure about the flux.

gloves are pretty cheap, as is an apron and face mask.

Diet Coke... ;)