Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger

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It's silly challenge of the day time. I'm wondering if discarded halogen lamp SMPSU transformers could become car battery chargers.

Thoughts so far....
The main question is what can these units be counted on to protect themselves against. Overcurrent & short are the main questions. They will come across these IRL when driving halogens.
How would they respond if the output were bridge rectified and fed straight to a battery?

Slow diodes on a high frequency output, how will that work?

I know it sounds like a daft idea, but not entirely. I might have a use for a lot of them if they survive, stay safe and function somewhat. I'm not considering adding any smarts.


NT

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 3:22:31 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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It depends.  

Rick C.  

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Friday, 4 May 2018 16:29:14 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:
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I've concluded that the only way is to try them. They should be protected against overload & short, but making sure would be needed. Also would need to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of the load.


NT

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 6:52:42 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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gen lamp SMPSU transformers could become car battery chargers.
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emselves against. Overcurrent & short are the main questions. They will com
e across these IRL when driving halogens.
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raight to a battery?
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se for a lot of them if they survive, stay safe and function somewhat. I'm  
not considering adding any smarts.
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 against overload & short, but making sure would be needed. Also would need
 to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of the load.

How is it that you think they will do a good job of charging the battery?  
I'd be more worried about that.  It is easy enough to add a current limit t
o the output, but to make a PSU into a battery charger is about the same as
 starting from scratch.  Do you know the voltage output?  You said you want
ed to charge a car battery.  I guess that won't be too hard to do, but it i
s still a bit of work in terms of added circuitry.  

Rick C.

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Sunday, 6 May 2018 00:08:00 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:
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logen lamp SMPSU transformers could become car battery chargers.
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themselves against. Overcurrent & short are the main questions. They will c
ome across these IRL when driving halogens.
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straight to a battery?
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 use for a lot of them if they survive, stay safe and function somewhat. I'
m not considering adding any smarts.
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ed against overload & short, but making sure would be needed. Also would ne
ed to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of the load.
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  I'd be more worried about that.  It is easy enough to add a current limit
 to the output, but to make a PSU into a battery charger is about the same  
as starting from scratch.  Do you know the voltage output?  You said you wa
nted to charge a car battery.  I guess that won't be too hard to do, but it
 is still a bit of work in terms of added circuitry.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

It's sod all work, add a BR & fuse & it's done. I didn't say it'd be a good
 charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cope with the bat
tery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, not from a safet
y pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. Soon I'll try a
 couple & see.

The output is 11.5v ac, but the waveform is so far unknown. That will have  
a significant effect on things. Frequency is high, how diodes will react to
 that is also not yet known.


NT

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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od charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cope with the b
attery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, not from a saf
ety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. Soon I'll try
 a couple & see.
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e a significant effect on things. Frequency is high, how diodes will react  
to that is also not yet known.
Quoted text here. Click to load it

** Typial output ( burst pattern ) waveform is shown at 1:34 into this U-tu
be.  

 At 1:40 the HF switching wave is shown.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umK1OuRL7n8



Although specified at 11.5V rms output, the max output will be significantl
y higher -  maybe 15 to 18 volts peak, more than compensating the diode dro
ps in an external bridge.  

You may need to use fast diodes too.

....   Phil


Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Sunday, 6 May 2018 09:15:10 UTC+1, Phil Allison  wrote:
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good charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cope with the
 battery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, not from a s
afety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. Soon I'll t
ry a couple & see.
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ave a significant effect on things. Frequency is high, how diodes will reac
t to that is also not yet known.
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tube.  
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tly higher -  maybe 15 to 18 volts peak, more than compensating the diode d
rops in an external bridge.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

that's quite informative, thanks.
With a near square wave output that's only going to be 11.5 or 12v peak tho
ugh. Not enough.


NT

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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a good charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cope with t
he battery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, not from a
 safety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. Soon I'll
 try a couple & see.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 have a significant effect on things. Frequency is high, how diodes will re
act to that is also not yet known.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
U-tube.  
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antly higher -  maybe 15 to 18 volts peak, more than compensating the diode
 drops in an external bridge.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it


 ** More informative than you think.

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** You have misunderstood the scope traces.

The nominal 11.5V output consists of a high frequency, rectangular wave 100
% MODULATED at double supply frequency - because the AC supply to the oscil
lator is rectified but NOT filtered !!.

The first scope trace shows just one supply cycle with oscillation stating  
at about half supply voltage, rising to a maximum at supply peak and then f
alling until oscillation stops. The amplitude variations are smoothed out b
y the thermal inertia of the halogen lamp filament.

The peak value is much higher than 11.5V and will be enough to charge a 12V
 car battery - same a using a conventional transformer and bridge rectifier
 does.



.... Phil  

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Monday, 7 May 2018 03:06:05 UTC+1, Phil Allison  wrote:
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e a good charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cope with
 the battery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, not from
 a safety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. Soon I'
ll try a couple & see.
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ll have a significant effect on things. Frequency is high, how diodes will  
react to that is also not yet known.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
s U-tube.  
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icantly higher -  maybe 15 to 18 volts peak, more than compensating the dio
de drops in an external bridge.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
00% MODULATED at double supply frequency - because the AC supply to the osc
illator is rectified but NOT filtered !!.
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g at about half supply voltage, rising to a maximum at supply peak and then
 falling until oscillation stops. The amplitude variations are smoothed out
 by the thermal inertia of the halogen lamp filament.
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2V car battery - same a using a conventional transformer and bridge rectifi
er does.
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yes, I hadn't thought that through for some reason. That makes life easier.
 11.5x1.414= 16.26v. -2v for diode drops makes about 14.2v peak loaded, n
ot bad for a dumb lead acid charger.


NT

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 2:03:13 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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cted against overload & short, but making sure would be needed. Also would  
need to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of the load.
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y?  I'd be more worried about that.  It is easy enough to add a current lim
it to the output, but to make a PSU into a battery charger is about the sam
e as starting from scratch.  Do you know the voltage output?  You said you  
wanted to charge a car battery.  I guess that won't be too hard to do, but  
it is still a bit of work in terms of added circuitry.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
od charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cope with the b
attery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, not from a saf
ety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. Soon I'll try
 a couple & see.

Can't say, I have no idea what a BR is.  But if your charger doesn't do a p
roper job of charging a battery it is pretty pointless and can actually dam
age the battery, so worse than just poor.  

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e a significant effect on things. Frequency is high, how diodes will react  
to that is also not yet known.

AC???  So when you say transformer, you mean a thing with coils and a metal
 core?  The industry calls all devices for powering lighting transformers o
r ballasts even if they are constant voltage power supplies or similar.  I  
thought you referred to it as a SMPS but I don't get why it would be AC and
 a SMPS.  

Rick C.  

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
onsdag den 9. maj 2018 kl. 01.19.08 UTC+2 skrev snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com:
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tected against overload & short, but making sure would be needed. Also woul
d need to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of the load.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ery?  I'd be more worried about that.  It is easy enough to add a current l
imit to the output, but to make a PSU into a battery charger is about the s
ame as starting from scratch.  Do you know the voltage output?  You said yo
u wanted to charge a car battery.  I guess that won't be too hard to do, bu
t it is still a bit of work in terms of added circuitry.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
good charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cope with the
 battery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, not from a s
afety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. Soon I'll t
ry a couple & see.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 proper job of charging a battery it is pretty pointless and can actually d
amage the battery, so worse than just poor.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ave a significant effect on things. Frequency is high, how diodes will reac
t to that is also not yet known.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
al core?  The industry calls all devices for powering lighting transformers
 or ballasts even if they are constant voltage power supplies or similar.  
I thought you referred to it as a SMPS but I don't get why it would be AC a
nd a SMPS.  

saves a rectifier and the lamp doesn't care


Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Wednesday, 9 May 2018 00:19:08 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:
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tected against overload & short, but making sure would be needed. Also woul
d need to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of the load.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ery?  I'd be more worried about that.  It is easy enough to add a current l
imit to the output, but to make a PSU into a battery charger is about the s
ame as starting from scratch.  Do you know the voltage output?  You said yo
u wanted to charge a car battery.  I guess that won't be too hard to do, bu
t it is still a bit of work in terms of added circuitry.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
good charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cope with the
 battery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, not from a s
afety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. Soon I'll t
ry a couple & see.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 proper job of charging a battery it is pretty pointless and can actually d
amage the battery, so worse than just poor.  

its functionality is as wanted.

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ave a significant effect on things. Frequency is high, how diodes will reac
t to that is also not yet known.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
al core?  The industry calls all devices for powering lighting transformers
 or ballasts even if they are constant voltage power supplies or similar.  
I thought you referred to it as a SMPS but I don't get why it would be AC a
nd a SMPS.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

I'm not clear why you're confused. Halogen lighting transformers are widesp
read & well known SMPSUs with ac output. Phil posted enough info for anyone
 to understand them.


NT

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 9:10:37 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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rotected against overload & short, but making sure would be needed. Also wo
uld need to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of the load.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ttery?  I'd be more worried about that.  It is easy enough to add a current
 limit to the output, but to make a PSU into a battery charger is about the
 same as starting from scratch.  Do you know the voltage output?  You said  
you wanted to charge a car battery.  I guess that won't be too hard to do,  
but it is still a bit of work in terms of added circuitry.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
a good charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cope with t
he battery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, not from a
 safety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. Soon I'll
 try a couple & see.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 a proper job of charging a battery it is pretty pointless and can actually
 damage the battery, so worse than just poor.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Huh?  It's functionality is not the same as a battery charger, not even clo
se.  

So you don't know what a BR is either?  


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 have a significant effect on things. Frequency is high, how diodes will re
act to that is also not yet known.
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etal core?  The industry calls all devices for powering lighting transforme
rs or ballasts even if they are constant voltage power supplies or similar.
  I thought you referred to it as a SMPS but I don't get why it would be AC
 and a SMPS.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
spread & well known SMPSUs with ac output. Phil posted enough info for anyo
ne to understand them.

Yeah, I hadn't seen that when I posted.  I guess I was thinking of the LED  
PSUs that they call transformers or ballasts.  It makes sense an incandesce
nt supply would output AC.  

Rick C.  

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Saturday, 12 May 2018 01:15:46 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:
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:
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e:
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 protected against overload & short, but making sure would be needed. Also  
would need to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of the load.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
battery?  I'd be more worried about that.  It is easy enough to add a curre
nt limit to the output, but to make a PSU into a battery charger is about t
he same as starting from scratch.  Do you know the voltage output?  You sai
d you wanted to charge a car battery.  I guess that won't be too hard to do
, but it is still a bit of work in terms of added circuitry.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
e a good charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cope with
 the battery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, not from
 a safety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. Soon I'
ll try a couple & see.
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do a proper job of charging a battery it is pretty pointless and can actual
ly damage the battery, so worse than just poor.  
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lose.  

it's identical

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it's you that doesn't know what one is, remember? I mentioned using one, so
 presumably, at least if you're at all sensible, I do.
If you don't understand what a BR is when it's the only thing that takes ac
 and charges a battery with it then you're either not an EE or are a silly  
troll.


NT

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 8:50:42 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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te:
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ote:
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be protected against overload & short, but making sure would be needed. Als
o would need to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of the load.
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e battery?  I'd be more worried about that.  It is easy enough to add a cur
rent limit to the output, but to make a PSU into a battery charger is about
 the same as starting from scratch.  Do you know the voltage output?  You s
aid you wanted to charge a car battery.  I guess that won't be too hard to  
do, but it is still a bit of work in terms of added circuitry.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 be a good charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cope wi
th the battery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, not fr
om a safety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. Soon  
I'll try a couple & see.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
t do a proper job of charging a battery it is pretty pointless and can actu
ally damage the battery, so worse than just poor.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 close.  
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so presumably, at least if you're at all sensible, I do.
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ac and charges a battery with it then you're either not an EE or are a sill
y troll.

I'm not going to argue silly word games with you.  If you know what a BR is
 and would like to share, then please do.  Otherwise there is no point havi
ng a discussion with you.  I never said I didn't "understand" a BR, I said  
I don't know what it is.  What does BR stand for?  EAOWSA - Engineers are o
bsessed with silly abbreviations.  

Rick C.

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Saturday, 12 May 2018 15:16:13 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:
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:
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rote:
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wrote:
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d be protected against overload & short, but making sure would be needed. A
lso would need to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of the load
.
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the battery?  I'd be more worried about that.  It is easy enough to add a c
urrent limit to the output, but to make a PSU into a battery charger is abo
ut the same as starting from scratch.  Do you know the voltage output?  You
 said you wanted to charge a car battery.  I guess that won't be too hard t
o do, but it is still a bit of work in terms of added circuitry.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
'd be a good charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cope  
with the battery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, not  
from a safety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. Soo
n I'll try a couple & see.
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n't do a proper job of charging a battery it is pretty pointless and can ac
tually damage the battery, so worse than just poor.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
en close.  
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, so presumably, at least if you're at all sensible, I do.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
s ac and charges a battery with it then you're either not an EE or are a si
lly troll.
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is and would like to share, then please do.  Otherwise there is no point ha
ving a discussion with you.  I never said I didn't "understand" a BR, I sai
d I don't know what it is.  What does BR stand for?  EAOWSA - Engineers are
 obsessed with silly abbreviations.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

bridge rectifier. It turns ac into dc. The charger wouldn't work without a  
rectifier of some sort.


NT

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 12:31:17 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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te:
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 wrote:
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  wrote:
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uld be protected against overload & short, but making sure would be needed.
 Also would need to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of the lo
ad.
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g the battery?  I'd be more worried about that.  It is easy enough to add a
 current limit to the output, but to make a PSU into a battery charger is a
bout the same as starting from scratch.  Do you know the voltage output?  Y
ou said you wanted to charge a car battery.  I guess that won't be too hard
 to do, but it is still a bit of work in terms of added circuitry.  
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it'd be a good charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can cop
e with the battery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question, no
t from a safety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down. S
oon I'll try a couple & see.
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esn't do a proper job of charging a battery it is pretty pointless and can  
actually damage the battery, so worse than just poor.  
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even close.  
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ne, so presumably, at least if you're at all sensible, I do.
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kes ac and charges a battery with it then you're either not an EE or are a  
silly troll.
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R is and would like to share, then please do.  Otherwise there is no point  
having a discussion with you.  I never said I didn't "understand" a BR, I s
aid I don't know what it is.  What does BR stand for?  EAOWSA - Engineers a
re obsessed with silly abbreviations.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
a rectifier of some sort.

That's all you needed to do, use words instead of abbreviating every simple
 term.  

Rick C.

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Saturday, 12 May 2018 18:15:21 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:
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:
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rote:
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m  wrote:
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om  wrote:
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hould be protected against overload & short, but making sure would be neede
d. Also would need to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of the  
load.
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ing the battery?  I'd be more worried about that.  It is easy enough to add
 a current limit to the output, but to make a PSU into a battery charger is
 about the same as starting from scratch.  Do you know the voltage output?  
 You said you wanted to charge a car battery.  I guess that won't be too ha
rd to do, but it is still a bit of work in terms of added circuitry.  
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y it'd be a good charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can c
ope with the battery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question,  
not from a safety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting down.
 Soon I'll try a couple & see.
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doesn't do a proper job of charging a battery it is pretty pointless and ca
n actually damage the battery, so worse than just poor.  
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t even close.  
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 one, so presumably, at least if you're at all sensible, I do.
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takes ac and charges a battery with it then you're either not an EE or are  
a silly troll.
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 BR is and would like to share, then please do.  Otherwise there is no poin
t having a discussion with you.  I never said I didn't "understand" a BR, I
 said I don't know what it is.  What does BR stand for?  EAOWSA - Engineers
 are obsessed with silly abbreviations.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
t a rectifier of some sort.
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le term.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

I've not met an EE before that didn't know what a BR was.


NT

Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On 12/05/2018 20:17, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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The only time I have seen the BR abbreviation is British Rail, and that  
was a long time ago.

Even if I could guess from the context, this is the first time I have  
seen BR to denote a bridge rectifier.


--  
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
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Re: Challenge of the Day: from halogen transformer to battery charger
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 3:17:12 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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te:
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 wrote:
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com  wrote:
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.com  wrote:
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:
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 should be protected against overload & short, but making sure would be nee
ded. Also would need to check they can tolerate the unexpected nature of th
e load.
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rging the battery?  I'd be more worried about that.  It is easy enough to a
dd a current limit to the output, but to make a PSU into a battery charger  
is about the same as starting from scratch.  Do you know the voltage output
?  You said you wanted to charge a car battery.  I guess that won't be too  
hard to do, but it is still a bit of work in terms of added circuitry.  
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say it'd be a good charger, it won't, but it will do the job if the psu can
 cope with the battery's interest in current. That 'if' is the big question
, not from a safety pov but continuing to function rather than shutting dow
n. Soon I'll try a couple & see.
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r doesn't do a proper job of charging a battery it is pretty pointless and  
can actually damage the battery, so worse than just poor.  
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not even close.  
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ng one, so presumably, at least if you're at all sensible, I do.
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t takes ac and charges a battery with it then you're either not an EE or ar
e a silly troll.
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 a BR is and would like to share, then please do.  Otherwise there is no po
int having a discussion with you.  I never said I didn't "understand" a BR,
 I said I don't know what it is.  What does BR stand for?  EAOWSA - Enginee
rs are obsessed with silly abbreviations.  
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out a rectifier of some sort.
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mple term.  
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I know what a bridge rectifier is.  I didn't know that was what you were ta
lking about.  I've never seen anyone need to abbreviate that term.  Abbrevi
ations are usually applied to terms that are both frequently used and a bit
 tedious to type, bridge rectifier is neither.  Here's some web searching f
or BR.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/BR

It did show Bridgewire Resistance... getting close maybe.  

Add "electrical abbreviation" to the search and I get...  

https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/glossary/definitions.mvp/term/BR/gpk/959

Which simply refers to the battery type.  

https://mechatrofice.com/electrical/abbreviations-full-forms

Nope, not there...  

https://www.archtoolbox.com/representation/abbreviations/electabbrev.html

Not there either...

https://www.industry.usa.siemens.com/automation/us/en/industrial-controls/p
roducts/control-products-tech-info/pages/abbreviations.aspx

Siemens thinks it means Brake Relay...

Ahhh.... found it under component name abbreviations...

http://www.electronicsandyou.com/electronic-components-parts/electronic_com
ponent_name_abbreviations.html

Yes, that was very easy to figure out.  

Rick C.

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