better 4046 PLL

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I have a good customer who wants us to build a weird glue-logic fanout
box to solve some system problems. One thing they want to do is give
us a 40 KHz clock and want us to output 100 KHz.  

A 4046 or HC4046 could multiply by 5 to 200K, then we could divide by
2 to 100K. That would use the drecky 4046 VCO and the drekkier phase
detector with tons of phase noise. Is there a better 4046 chip around,
or some equivalently simple pll/vco chip?

This is a sort of charity job, no reason to do it except that it's a
good customer. I want to keep it simple, no uP code, no FPGAs to
program, all old fashioned hardware.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tuesday, June 25, 2013 3:06:32 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
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Couldn't you use XOR gates to multiply by 10 and then divide by 4 with a couple
of flip-flops?

Regards,
Ray

Re: better 4046 PLL
On 06/25/2013 04:06 PM, John Larkin wrote:
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What's the accuracy spec on the 40 kHz?

If it fits within a +- 50 ppm tuning range, I'd tend to multiply up to,  
say, 8 MHz with a VCXO and divide down again.   The 4046's PFD is better  
than good enough for that.  VCXOs are pretty cheap, about $3 in onesies,  
e.g. http://tinyurl.com/q8nrqlt .

I've used LC VCOs in similar situations.  Really dramatically better  
than a 4046's oscillator.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--  
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 16:39:35 -0400, Phil Hobbs

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Don't know yet! My main contact on this is a software guy.

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Yeah, a VCXO would be a great jitter cleanup part. I'll have to see if
it would lock.

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There are lots of RF type (varicap tuned) commercial VCOs around,
anywhere from narrowband to octave range. I could put one on the board
layout, as an option to the 4046 VCO.

Thanks


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 14:12:36 -0700, John Larkin

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Cirrus has a nice PLL clock chip, but it's OTP and requires a $170
board to program it.  

http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS2300-OTP_F2.pdf

Only goes down to 6MHz on the output, so it would be at least a 2-chip
solution.  


Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 17:57:08 -0400, Spehro Pefhany

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Several people make programmable XOs and VCXOs and IC synthesizers. But the math
to program a frequency is complex, if it's revealed at all.  

Fox will program a VCXO to practically any frequency in a few days, their
Xpresso parts. I think some distributors will program them, too. They seem to
have a 3 GHz oscillator somewhere inside, according to our spectrum analyzer.




--  

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 13:06:32 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

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I think there's a 7046 from someone, but (a) I don't know if it's  
74HC7046, 74AC7046, 74YMMV7046, or what, and (b) I don't know if it's  
still available.

Do they really need 100kHz that's better than what the "drecky" 4046 can  
supply?  If not, why complain?

--  

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 15:44:59 -0500, Tim Wescott

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"Drecky" is a Larkin comment only because he thinks I designed it.  I
didn't.  It's some poor copy, done by... I have no clue.  The VCO, in
particular, is a real kludge.
        
                                        ...Jim Thompson
--  
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 14:23:53 -0700, Jim Thompson

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You just made no sense at all. You agree with me that the 4046 is a
pretty bad part. I never said you designed it, and never suspected
that you did. It was an old RCA design originally.

We were talking about PLLs, and you start your idiotic squabbling as
usual. You want to make trouble because you're a mean-spirted paranoid
old git. You're not very good at it.

Hey, Mo won a 1-week all-expenses scholarship to a course at BU (over
a thousand applicants, 20 selected from all over the world) and she
has a very nice dorm room. You know, the very same dorms that you used
to peep into the windows of, when you were there roughly a century
ago. The only real compensation of having one's wife out of town is
that I can eat serious meat three times a day.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 14:53:00 -0700, John Larkin

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Please convey my congratulations to Mo!

I never "peeped"... I never joined a frat.  I just observed what the
frats did with their front rooms... and you carried that observation
to an all-time-high insane rant.

If you have to wait for your wife to be out of town to "eat serious
meat" you must be pussy whipped >:-}  (Not that I'm surprised :-)

As for you understanding PLL's... Bwahahahahahahaha!
        
                                        ...Jim Thompson
--  
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 15:51:20 -0700, Jim Thompson

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http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/V880DS.shtml

Under 3 ps RMS jitter, way under 1 ps/degreeC total-board timing
drift, locking to an OC3 fiberoptic serial data stream. The Vectron
OC3 fiber receivers went out of production halfway through the
project, so I had to design my own. That was tricky, keeping the phase
shift low over 20 dB of optical power level.

It's a bang-bang adaptive-loop d-flop phase detector in differential
Eclips Plus SiGe logic. The major phase noise contributor was
vibration, so I designed some tiny wireform springs to isolate the
nice massive DIP14 ecl vcxo from the PC board. Sort of little
bobblehead dolls like you see in the backs of cars, mechanical
resonance around 10 Hz.

There are a few hundred of these boards firing a couple thousand
client devices in NIF, picoseconds of precision across acres of
facility.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Jitter3.gif


Many of our boards have PLLs, analog and digital. I've posted about
some before, so your statement above is stupid, as usual.



--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 16:22:44 -0700, John Larkin

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So why didn't you know of the modern HC/HCT versions?

And you're still pussy-whipped >:-}

And a bird-brain.
        
                                        ...Jim Thompson
--  
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 16:34:48 -0700, Jim Thompson

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Because it's a discussion group, where people help one another out.
You clearly don't get the concept. All you do here is boast and call
other people stupid. And spin technical discussions into bitch-fests.

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No complaints. I can't imagine a better woman to do it to me.

I'm reminded of a frat party I went to once (as a guest, not a
member.) A guy had a tee shirt with two big letters PW on the front.
The beautiful girl next to him had a shirt with one big letter, P.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 17:11:48 -0700, John Larkin

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That's actually funny... so rare for you ;-)
        
                                        ...Jim Thompson
--  
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 14:53:00 -0700, John Larkin


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---
So she has you on a short leash when she's around, but hasn't quite
figured out how to control you remotely?

Does "pussywhipped" mean the same thing in San Francisco that it does
in Austin?

--  
JF

Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 19:47:45 -0500, John Fields

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Sno-o-o-ort ;-)
        
                                        ...Jim Thompson
--  
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 19:47:45 -0500, John Fields

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She doesn't like heavy meat, so we eat light, healthy food. Tastes
great. But once in a while I like serious guy food. It would probably
kill me if I ate like this all the time. Probably bore me, too. I'd
hate to get jaded about baby back ribs or seriously good corned beef.

We do agree about bacon. And gelato. Her chicken dishes, paprica
chicken and chicken marsala, are superb.

It's no great hardship to eat unagi and pasta carbonara and blackened
red snapper and shrimp+grits. I cook a lot of cajun/creole, and she
cooks a lot of California and Italian, and those are not traditionally
meat heavy. The fruits and veggies here in California, especially this
time of year, are fantastic.

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Don't be silly. If I shared shopping and cooking with anyone, any kind
of roommate, we'd have to agree on what we cook and eat together. No
point in two people cooking two separate meals.  

Do you make all the rules in your household? No compromises at all?
Lord and Master? Do you live with a doormat?

Why do you and Jim keep cackling and squawking in a thread about PLLs?

Do you have anything to say about PLLs?

Thought not.



--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 19:06:53 -0700, John Larkin

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---
You know the answers to those questions, so now who's being silly?
---

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---
Actually, _you_ were the one who changed the direction of the thread
with your:  

"Hey, Mo won a 1-week all-expenses scholarship to a course at BU (over
a thousand applicants, 20 selected from all over the world) and she
has a very nice dorm room. You know, the very same dorms that you used
to peep into the windows of, when you were there roughly a century
ago. The only real compensation of having one's wife out of town is
that I can eat serious meat three times a day."

My comment was that if you _can't_ eat "serious meat" (what you
referred to later as "serious guy food") three times a day because
_she_ doesn't like it, then you're sexist as well as whupped.  

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---
Isn't that putting the cart before the horse???

In the present context, I'd say that PLL is an acronym for  
Pussy Licked Larkin.

--  
JF

Re: better 4046 PLL
wrote:

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Idiot. The thread was about PLLs until Thompson issued his entirely illogical,
off-topic attempt at insult, BEFORE I posted the reply that you quote. And your
only posts to this thread have been personal, not to mention coarse, crude, and
misogynistic.  

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The topic is electronics design, you moron. Any idiot can type raunchy drivel,
in bad prose or bad verse. It take some actual skill to design a PLL.


--  

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

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Re: better 4046 PLL
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 08:59:01 -0700, John Larkin

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---
You're preaching to the choir, numbnuts.

Besides, I thought you claimed that you never used words like 'Idiot'
or 'Moron' in that high-falutin' twaddle you allude to.

--  
JF

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