Are programmers engineers?

FYI: The Atlantic has an article "Programmers: Stop Calling Yourselves Engineers"

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Reply to
Wanderer
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On the one hand, maybe nobody should be called an engineer unless they drive a train. On the other, one definition of engineer is 'a skillful contriver or originator of something.' And as I recall, a computer is a person, such as one who works at a lending house, who calculates the interest and keeps the books. So language adapts.

Reply to
Mark Storkamp

That article makes it clear that we need professional certification and continued education for journalists.

Reply to
John Larkin

If you can get somebody to pay you and engineering salary and call you an engineer then you are an engineer. If you go somewhere else after that and they refuse to call you an engineer then you are not an engineer.

Reply to
bulegoge

No. Programmers are not Engineers. Professional Engineers are accredited and belong to a professional organization. They have passed rigorous standards of education and testing to earn their title. If an overpass collapses the engineer(s) that designed it are held accountable.

Likewise Doctors cannot practice medicine unless they go to an approved medical school and have the appropriate accreditation. A doctor can lose his ability to practice medicine through misconduct and malpractice. Again they have earned their professional designation through a process education and testing.

Lawyers cannot practice law unless they pass the bar exam and are admitted to the bar, they also can lose the privilege of practicing law as a professional through malpractice or misconduct. Again, their title is earned through a process of education and testing.

The "software engineer" whose program controls a railway switch for example does not belong to any professional organization responsible for rigorous standards being met. If a software "glitch" causes two trains to collide what is the professional censure that can take place? None.

Why are programmers and IT people in general so resistant to professional association and accreditation? The culture of IT seems to appreciate meritocracy and this would enhance the level of professionalism of IT people in general.

S.

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Reply to
ssinzig

Your argument is correct in the strictest sense. However most engineers who legitimately call themselves engineers and went to engineering school do n ot have a professional engineering certificate. So while it is true in a le gal sense only certified people can call themselves professional engineers it does not address what the poster is trying to get at

Reply to
bulegoge

Crapola. Engineers in disciplines where the safety of the public is involved are certified, which is fine. I'm in favour of bridges staying up too. But saying that nobody else is an engineer is pure spinach.

Steve Wozniak isn't an engineer on your showing, and neither are Bob Noyce, Charles Steinmetz, Edwin H Armstrong, or Kelly Johnson. Some guy doing cookie-cutter freeway overpasses is an engineer, and those folks aren't--riiiiiigggghhhhhtttttt.

Some programmers are engineers, most probably don't qualify. Throwing code at the wall and seeing what sticks is not engineering, but doing control systems a la Tim Wescott certainly is, and that's just one example. A lot of the software I do is also engineering, e.g. writing simulation code to let me build better gizmos. Mike Engelhardt is also an engineer,

Good luck coming up with a government certification for whether Wozniak was qualified to design computers.

No meaningful censure occurs over here even when bridges fall down. In Europe you can go to jail.

Because of people like you, I expect, who are all about rules and not about getting stuff done. Professional certification is completely irrelevant in 99% of electronics. There's no Underwriters Labs for bridges.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

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Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
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Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Yet the vast majority of people who design circuits have the job title "engineer" but do not have a PE license. Ditto the vast majority of people who design mechanical contrivances.

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Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
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Reply to
Tim Wescott

I understand what you are saying, but I think the original premise is that calling anyone who programs software dilutes the title of "Engineer". Since we're loosely throwing titles around -- I'm sure I can pick up a lot of knowledge through on-line courses, night school and textbooks in the medical area of lets say cardiology; but I don't think you'd appreciate a cardiology enthusiast calling himself a "Doctor" and performing an angioplasty on you.

S.

Reply to
ssinzig

The Atlantic is a typical leftie rag. They think that government intervention is always A Good Thing, and that more government regulation will improve code quality.

I sort of doubt it.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  
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Reply to
John Larkin

e
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I say I'm an electronics engineer because I have a BSEE from NJIT. The valu e of my BSEE is in a large part based on what employers think of NJIT. The reason for certification would be to separate it from education. That way I could look for a cheaper education with less cost to my market value, at l east initially. The current engineering school system is run the way De Bee rs runs the diamond industry.

Reply to
Wanderer

I'm not saying somebody without an engineering degree cannot be a design genius or competent or otherwise. Steve Wozniak is a hero of mine, and if because of his accomplishments you want to call him an engineer I'm all for that.

But titles need to have some consistent meaning or they are worthless. A formal process of accreditation is the only way of accomplishing that.

Following your line of thought, that night school health course I took and got an 'A' in; and the Gray's Anatomy textbook I borrowed from the library qualifies me to be a Doctor.

Again, I don't understand why this concept raises such ire in the IT community. A formalized definition of what a "Software Engineer" is, for example, would be invaluable in giving at least a definition of what that title means, and the extent of competence the holder of the title has. Job seekers now have a standard by which they can measure themselves, employers have a way of consistently and accurately vetting applicants, the list goes on and on.

As it stands, I can grab some old C, C++ and Java textbooks off the shelf and call myself a "Software Engineer". No context, no minimum level of competence, no meaning whatsoever.

S.

Reply to
ssinzig

You are whatever you can get other people recognized in.the field to call you. A degree helps.

Reply to
bulegoge

By all means make up a new word or call yourself a 'state registered engineer' or somesuch, but you can't just appropriate a word in common use and insist that some groups of people stop using it.

Cheers

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Syd
Reply to
Syd Rumpo

There are good engineers, and there are... The good will be known as such, the bad ones will stay unknown and therefore unhired or confined to doing elevator jobs.

joe

Reply to
Joe Hey

Don't forget the 'skilful' (my spell checker fixed the spelling for you :).

joe

Reply to
Joe Hey

Interesting. My spell checker approves both skillful and skilful. I guess it depends on where you are:

Reply to
John S

My understanding is that in at least some states, the title "Professional Engineer" has exactly that meaning. This title is reserved by law (in those states) for those individuals who have received a specific certification by that state. It is similar to using the word "Licensed" as part of your title.

Trying to expand the scope of a "state certification" requirement to cover *all* uses of the term "engineer" seems far too aggressive to me. It's not the way people use the term "engineer" today. And, since there's already a well-recognized term of art (and law) for a Professional Engineer, it also seems to be unnecessary.

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Reply to
Dave Platt

I'm not appropriating a word in common use -- ime an engineer is a certified professional who has had rigorous training and experience in a specific discipline and has official recognition by an institution of his peers. People who are engineers by profession typically have a pedigree.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree -- but If I had graduated as a PEng and some knob came along with a 'Learn C++ and Java in 24 hours' book and called himself an "Engineer", I'd be pissed.

As long a we're throwing titles around, I'm going to call myself "Esquire".

Scott Sinzig, Esq.

Reply to
ssinzig

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You'd be even more pissed if it turned out that he had a natural talent for the task, and started surpassing you in a couple of weeks.

There's a proposition that it takes 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to become an expert at anything. "Deliberate" practice means thinking about wh at you are doing and always striving to do it better. 10,000 hours is a abo ut a five years of 40 hour weeks. Happily, you don't have to be an expert to out-perform the average performance in most professions.

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It roughly seems to be the same as calling yourself Mr. Scott Sinzig

Dr. Bill Sloman, Sydney

Reply to
Bill Sloman

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