Another "invisible fence" question

This particular fence (PetSafe brand, Yardmax model) has 2 modes, one of which is very interesting. It "knows" the inside of the fence from the outside and triggers when the dog goes out and doesn't stop until the dog comes back. Unlike a traditional fence which is simply distance based (if he goes out far enough, it stops). Part of the set up is to test it and reverse the wire ends if it has the inside & outside reversed.

I couldn't figure out how it could do this, when I was thinking in radio signal terms. It seemed like the collar would have to have 2 antennas, more than the wave length apart and detect the direction that the signal was traveling. Very improbable, I thought.

But now that Win has informed me that it's a _magnetic_ signal, it makes so much sense. The magnetic field a little ways away from the wire is (almost) vertical and "pointing" up on one side and down on the other. So a horizontal loop in the collar will have a voltage induced that is opposite in polarity on the 2 sides. So the collar can know when it's inside and approaching the wire (increasing signal strength), then decreasing as the field direction becomes more parallel to the loop (at the wire), and then increasing in opposite polarity when it's outside.

Does this make sense, or is there a approach that's more likely?

Thanks, Bob

Reply to
Bob Engelhardt
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Hmmm, Have you tried to measure the signal? It seems that it would only work if the signal was DC. Or maybe AC with a DC bias.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

y work if the signal was DC. Or maybe AC with a DC bias. "

DC won't do shit for you here. First of all there has to be two antennae on the dog. Secondly you need a non-symmetrical waveform. Between the two it should be able to tell without TDR and all this.

The way I describe it would mean that the correction stops when the dog tur ns around and starts getting home. However it needs to be set up then so th at correction is not applied when the dog is standing near the wire but fac ing in. A threshold would need to be set to make sure this does not happen.

Ever hear of a leash ? LOL They spend millions developing a pen the astrona uts could use in zero gravity. The Russians used pencils. It is cool to tal k about the technology but come on.

Reply to
jurb6006

Right! I had thought about that & forgot about it. My thought was a DC bias to keep it positive, or full wave rectified.

Regardless, I really should look at it. Tomorrow.

Bob

Reply to
Bob Engelhardt

Well, this isn't what I expected:

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About 6 kHz, about 125 ma (375 mv into 3R)

Bob

Reply to
Bob Engelhardt

Maybe the coil in the collar is designed to detect the vertical component of the B field. That would change sign when the dog leaves, and it wouldn't be hard to have it remember.

Why a dog person would be prepared to torture the animal merely to avoid building a real fence, I don't know, but then I don't understand dog people.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Reply to
Phil Hobbs

I've got a real fence... most of the time the gates are wide open. but when we go away, and during (at least) the beginning of shot gun season, (deer hunters) the gates are closed.

Deleting dog story,

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

ly work if the signal was DC. Or maybe AC with a DC bias.

Interesting. I am not surprised at the 6 khz signal. Cave radios use low f requencies, the earth attenuates high frequencies. The only thing I can s pot that might show direction is the spike at the beginning of the burst. T here are two spikes , one larger that the other. Maybe the spike triggers the collar on and the burst delivers the shock.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

I looked the patents up. They say 10 KHz modulated at 30 Hz, but that was a long time ago, and it's probably being modulated with data now.

Here are a few relevant patents, chosen from many: 4,967,695;

5,432,271; 5,576,694.

One of these show how to cancel the field on say a gate, to prevent incorrect correction of the dog.

More generally, look for patents assigned to Invisible Fence.

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joe Gwinn

How would the collar know if it turned around on the dog's neck?

I've seen dog lovers use them because their property has too many trees and bushes to build a fence. The property line is in the woods.

Reply to
Tom Del Rosso

Shot gun for deer?

Reply to
Tom Del Rosso

Shotgun slugs are more effective than Buck shot. Both of them do not carry as far as a bullet from a rifle. So are required in areas where using a rifle shot is dangerous.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

Rifles aren't allowed in many jurisdictions. There, shotguns are the weapon of choice. They don't use shot, though. ;-)

Reply to
krw

Yeah.. that's just what we call it around here. Bow and then muzzle loader season open up first. Shotgun season is when there is a lot of blamming going on in the woods.

I think they load up their shotguns with deer slugs.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

I'm sincerely curious about that, BTW.

Reply to
Tom Del Rosso

Oh yeah, and what if the dog rolls over?

Reply to
Tom Del Rosso

accelerometer.

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Reply to
Jasen Betts

It is "installed" in a prescribed orientation: LED indicator forward.

Reply to
Bob Engelhardt

From my research, this is how it works. I replied in another forum and apol ogize here for the basic electronics, but figured other people might want t o know how it works who aren't EE's. ;)

We should start by saying that any wire with a current flowing through it i s an inductor by means of the fact that if a current flows through the wire , a magnetic field is "induced" around the wire and if a magnetic field mov es across the wire (or visa versa) a current is induced in the wire. To ima gine the polarity of the magnetic field around a wire, you can use the "rig ht hand rule". Wrap your right hand around the wire with your thumb pointin g parallel to the wire. If conventional (positive charge) current is flowin g in the direction of your thumb, then the magnetic field is polarized in t he direction your fingers are curling. The polarity of the magnetic field g enerated by a current flowing through wire is opposite on each side of the wire. If the wire were laying on the ground, you can think of the magnetic field going "down" on one side and "up" on the other. The patent for how th e yardmax polarity detection and system works is described in patent 8,047,

151, but is uses the technology of the 5,794,569 patent from another compan y.

The collar is very sophisticated. It uses an 3-axis accelerometer to determ ine the position of the collar and 3 mutually orthagonal antennas connected to a reciever to get a strong signal no matter the orientation of the coll ar (not for direction finding in this case). In other words, each antenna p oints to one of the 3 dimensions of space and the accelerometer knows the o rientation of the collar with respect to the ground by way of gravity.

The transmitter sends each first cycle of a carrier signal with a higher cu rrent to the wire using an amplitude modulated sine wave signal so that the "wake up" can be detected by the receiver and to provide a reference for t he positive part of the signal since the polarity of the magnetic field fro m the wire (which is an antenna) actually changes back and forth as the cur rent flowing through it changes direction and we need to know when the sign al is positive. The first carrier cycle of each part of the signal is alway s positive, so the receiver in the collar now can tell the polarity of magn etic field from the wire at that point in time. It does this by using the a ccelerometer to determine "down" and then using the antenna most perpendicu lar to the ground to receive the signal and know which direction the curren t is flowing in the antenna. It then compares that to a table in the microp rocessor in the collar that knows what polarity should be inside the bounda ry vs. outside. Now the collar processor can read the following data train of carrier bursts (8 bits worth) to get information sent by the transmitter such as which collar gets which instructions (like how strong a correction ), etc. The collar stores whether it is inside or outside the boundary and can handle all the clever tasks it needs to in yardmax mode, like continuin g the correction to a point until the pet returns inside the boundary and n ot correcting when outside the boundary and trying to get back in.

Reply to
fndecker

Irrelevant, the accelerometer knows "down", the antenna of the 3 most up an d down determines the polarity of the magnetic field, and that determines " inside" or "outside" the boundary. The dog could walk backwards or fly thou gh it upside down or sideways and it would still work ;) Assuming of course , the firmware in the collar is written to account for being upside if the antenna polarity can be reversed by being upside down. I assume this is the accounted for or the dog would be shocked if it was rolling upside down ne ar the boundary. Hence the need for 3 antennas.

Reply to
fndecker

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