AGW "experts" - Know Thyselves

Four Sides to Every Story By STEWART BRAND The New York Times December 15, 2009

CLIMATE talks have been going on in Copenhagen for a week now, and it appears to be a two-sided debate between alarmists and skeptics. But there are actually four different views of global warming. A taxonomy of the four:

DENIALISTS They are loud, sure and political. Their view is that climatologists and their fellow travelers are engaged in a vast conspiracy to panic the public into following an agenda that is political and pernicious. Senator James Inhofe of Oklahoma and the columnist George Will wave the banner for the hoax-callers.

=93The claim that global warming is caused by manmade emissions is simply untrue and not based on sound science,=94 Mr. Inhofe declared in a 2003 speech to the Senate about the Kyoto accord that remains emblematic of his position. =93CO2 does not cause catastrophic disasters =97 actually it would be beneficial to our environment and our economy .... The motives for Kyoto are economic, not environmental =97 that is, proponents favor handicapping the American economy through carbon taxes and more regulations.=94

SKEPTICS This group is most interested in the limitations of climate science so far: they like to examine in detail the contradictions and shortcomings in climate data and models, and they are wary about any =93consensus=94 in science. To the skeptics=92 discomfort, their arguments are frequently quoted by the denialists.

In this mode, Roger Pielke, a climate scientist at the University of Colorado, argues that the scenarios presented by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change are overstated and underpredictive. Another prominent skeptic is the physicist Freeman Dyson, who wrote in 2007: =93I am opposing the holy brotherhood of climate model experts and the crowd of deluded citizens who believe the numbers predicted by the computer models .... I have studied the climate models and I know what they can do. The models solve the equations of fluid dynamics, and they do a very good job of describing the fluid motions of the atmosphere and the oceans. They do a very poor job of describing the clouds, the dust, the chemistry and the biology of fields and farms and forests.=94

WARNERS These are the climatologists who see the trends in climate headed toward planetary disaster, and they blame human production of greenhouse gases as the primary culprit. Leaders in this category are the scientists James Hansen, Stephen Schneider and James Lovelock. (This is the group that most persuades me and whose views I promote.)

=93If humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to that on which civilization developed and to which life on earth is adapted,=94 Mr. Hansen wrote as the lead author of an influential 2008 paper, then the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere would have to be reduced from 395 parts per million to =93at most 350 p.p.m.=94

CALAMATISTS There are many environmentalists who believe that industrial civilization has committed crimes against nature, and retribution is coming. They quote the warners in apocalyptic terms, and they view denialists as deeply evil. The technology critic Jeremy Rifkin speaks in this manner, and the writer-turned-activist Bill McKibben is a (fairly gentle) leader in this category.

In his 2006 introduction for =93The End of Nature,=94 his famed 1989 book, Mr. McKibben wrote of climate change in religious terms: =93We are no longer able to think of ourselves as a species tossed about by larger forces =97 now we are those larger forces. Hurricanes and thunderstorms and tornadoes become not acts of God but acts of man. That was what I meant by the =91end of nature.=92=94

The calamatists and denialists are primarily political figures, with firm ideological loyalties, whereas the warners and skeptics are primarily scientists, guided by ever-changing evidence. That distinction between ideology and science not only helps clarify the strengths and weaknesses of the four stances, it can also be used to predict how they might respond to future climate developments.

If climate change were to suddenly reverse itself (because of some yet undiscovered mechanism of balance in our climate system), my guess is that the denialists would be triumphant, the skeptics would be skeptical this time of the apparent good news, the warners would be relieved, and the calamatists would seek out some other doom to proclaim.

If climate change keeps getting worse then I would expect denialists to grasp at stranger straws, many skeptics to become warners, the warners to start pushing geoengineering schemes like sulfur dust in the stratosphere, and the calamatists to push liberal political agendas =97 just as the denialists said they would.

Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company

Reply to
J.A. Legris
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Since when can someone be called a 'denialist' for questioning an unproven and weak hypothesis ?

WHERE'S THE SCIENCE ? Behind locked doors, with keepers of the keys keener to DESTROY their 'evidence' than reveal it to the public. Some SCIENCE that is !

Graham

Reply to
Eeyore

SNIP

Sceptical of what?

Pielke Snr is a supporter of AGW. He is sceptical of the CO2 emphasis believing in other factors such as change in land use, aerosols, other GHGs, soot to name a few.

I would agree with him on the range of issues but possibly disagree on the magnitudes of the A in AGW and the magnitude of the GW.

SNIP

Reply to
Raveninghorde

ts

Which is to say that while Ravinghorde doesn't know much (and understands evern less) he is a least a little less deluded than Graham.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

If Graham had a reading age of seven or higher, he'd appreciate that the sceptics are doing that kind of questioning.

The denialists are just peddling the kind of irrational conspiracy theories that Graham likes to parade; he doesn't know enough science to be able to the difference between a denialist and sceptic, and - as he has regularly proved he doesn't know enough science to recognise even truly risible rubbish when he picks it up fronm denialist web- sites.

I'm sure that he still doesn't have a clue about what the Suess Effect is, or why it made nonsense of one of the sliiier ideas he has paraded here.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

Insults again ! Is that your idea of science ?

FYI I have TWO English 'O levels'. One in English Language, the other in English Literature which I passed at grade one.

My IQ is also 150+

Now, what are your credentials re: the above ?

I see you also dodged the issue I raised which was that the (now resigned) head of the CRU would rather have destroyed his data than release it under Freedom of Information legislation ! SCIENCE ?????

I have the evidenciary files on this PC.

Graham

Reply to
Eeyore

Agreed here too.

Personal insults are not SCIENCE. Much as you never post on electronics, I don't recall a single scientific contribution from you either.

You have become a tedious bore with nothing new to say.

Graham

Reply to
Eeyore

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I'm going to re-post this in this thread... sorry if that annoys anybody.. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The discussion about the AGW being true or false is tiring.

It is clear to any thinking person with any scientific background that AGW has NOT been proven to the point where it warrants major changes to our lifestyles.

So lets move to the next level of this chess game.

What is the game behind the game?

WHY are the politicians shoving AGW propaganda down our throats?

Is it simply an excuse to levy more taxes?

Or is something else going on? Do they know that we are really about to run out of oil and they are trying to wean us from oil before it runs out but don't want to panic us?

Is it a ploy to get us to accept nuclear energy with open arms?

I have this fear that when truth wins out in the end and AGW is eventually exposed as false that all of science will be badly discredited. It will be Y2K and cold fussion on a bigger scale.

What is the game behind the game?

Mark

Reply to
Mark

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Think it through move by move, like a chess game.

Assume Copenhagen magically goes just the way the Warmingists seem to want it to; the "Industrialized" countries drastically ramp down their petroleum consumption and basically turn themselves into "second- world countries".

What's the immediate global consequence?

Mark L. Fergerson

Reply to
alien8752

But it has been demonstrated by both experiment and simulation to a level of probability where there is absolutely no question that we should be working hard to maximise fuel efficiency and save energy now! I only support no-regrets energy saving measures at present - largely because I expect too much cheating. I deplore cap and trade proposals.

However, what we have are so-called Free Enterprise institutes who are shills for big oil and coal pretending there is no problem and anyway CO2 is good for plants so burn baby burn. Ostriches do not have a good strategy for AGW - burying your head in the sand does not work.

The science is now pretty clear and given another century there will only be a handful of professional deniers for hire still pretending that it isn't happening. Even in less controversial fields you can still find the odd flat Steady State Universe adherent - though not many of them and the idea of a Big Bang Cosmology is now nearly 80 years old with rock solid observational evidence and simulations to back it up.

The sceptics with scientific credibility have already shifted to saying that GW is happening but that most of it is natural (but then claim it is caused by previously unknown mechanisms).

I am in between the scientific sceptics and the warners. I have enough background in computer modelling to trust the simulations up to a point and I am confident that the vast majority of climate scientists are honest. I have seen all these dirty tricks used before during the CFC/ozone debacle and so as a Bayesian I am inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to people who were not proven liars in that scientific debate (or with previous as denier for hire with Reynolds tobacco).

Given the widespread utse of SPICE in electronics these days I am a bit surprised that s.e.d is so sceptical about computer modelling. Modern electronic design would be virtually impossible without simulators.

Probably. But in the US at least there is a real need to push for massive improvements in energy efficiency and an end to profligate waste. US motor vehicles average fleet fuel efficiency has not improved since Henry Ford built the model T it is still 20mpg.

ROW cars manage something between 40mpg to 60mpg. Japanese lead the way although some German cars have very good fuel efficiency too.

BTW I was impressed by the first flight of the Dreamliner 20% fuel savings is impressive and the wings are a beautiful curve. How come when your aerospace industry is so advanced your cars are complete garbage?

Offshoring all manufacturing to China doesn't do anything useful we only have one planetary atmosphere. Their emissions go to the same place.

Oil won't run out. But House of Saud might well fall prey to Al Qaeda. Look very carefully at the nationality of the 9/11 terrorists - how many were Iraqis? Where do you think the money to fund Al Qaeda comes from?

Nuclear fission power is the only technology that stands a chance of meeting our future energy needs without adding more CO2 to the atmosphere. Carbon storage and capture has a few tricks coming onstream in the next decade or so that might help. Wind power is a joke apart from windy locations and at my latitude solar power is a complete joke.

Renewables could play a part but they have to be installed where they will be optimally employed. It is madness subsidising installation of green energy in places where it can never work efficiently.

Y2k was real enough although most devices that were mission critical were dealt with in plenty of time to avoid problems. What was left were a few web scripts which showed silly things like Jan 1 19100. There was a bandwagon of delusional rightwing survivalist nutters who thought the world would end and are still living on stale buns and tinned sausages.

Cold fusion was an unfortunate example of two respected electrochemists rushing into publication about an experiment with unreproducible results. They were as I recall panicked into publication by a real science muon catalysed cold fusion paper. The main effect was to cause everyone on the planet with access to D2O and palladium to try and reproduce it and no-one could. A few die hard experimentalists in Japan are still trying.

It isn't a game. The science of AGW is fundamentally sound.

The problem is that human society is still stuck in the stone age. We don't have enough sensible politicians or mechanisms to deal rationally with what is a long term threat to our way of life. Not much change will occur in the life a single parliament of 5 years or even a decade but if it keeps getting warmer eventually they will have to take notice and it will cost a *lot* more to sort out the longer we leave it.

The UK government commissioned the Stern report to look at the economics of the various AGW scenarios. Short summary in the Telegraph in 2006.

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The bipolar disorder in US politics where both the main political parties think the other one and all its supporters are spawn of Satan is particularly bad for democracy. It is unfortunate that if one party believes something is true the other automatically assumes it is false.

Regards, Martin Brown

Reply to
Martin Brown

Simulation often misses reality. It only works when a system is simple, all the components are modeled correctly, the initial conditions are known, and there are no chaotic modes or radical time constant differences. Modeling turbulent flow or chaotic loops, or circuits with unexpected em couplings, or circuits with incomplete models, or situations with incorrect initial conditions, can produce wildly weird results. And the argument that you can model climate while ignoring weather, which you can't model, is bogus.

Yesterday we were predicted to have rain the rest of the week. Today we're predicted to not. A million square miles of air mass took a sudden, unmodeled turn to the left. Bummer: three more feet of snow in the Sierra would have been nice.

We recently simulated a product that uses two different power-supply-bootstrapped opamps, using the manufacturers' Spice models. Both worked fine in simulation. Both oscillated wildly in real life. The PSRR parts of the models apparently suck. Luckily the necessary kluges weren't too horrible.

[Pease just scribbled a bootstrapped opamp circuit in his ED column. He admitted to not actually testing it. He's gatting lazier and lazier.]

I'm skeptical of the climate sims precisely because I have simulated so many systems, using Spice and my own code. I have sort of learned meta-simulation, namely being able to decide whether I can trust the simulation results.

The world needs to see the source code and parameters/initial condition data of the climate simulations. Why do the authors tell us that we have to change the world but hide the justifications?

The politicos don't have the guts to do what makes sense: increase the tax on gasoline and diesel. And get the particulates under control.

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"Soot's increased absorption of solar energy is especially effective in warming the world's climate. "This forcing is unusually effective, causing twice as much global warming as a carbon-dioxide forcing of the same magnitude," Hansen noted."

John

Reply to
John Larkin
[snip]
[snip]

You are forgetting or perhaps purposefully-ignoring the fact that the problem is NOT with simulators, the problem is with the MODELS.

If you feed a simulator a bad model it's that old phrase GIGO.

I first had exposure to Berkeley 2G6 around 1980 (maybe a little earlier, the memories are going fast ;-), on a VAX780. Simulations DID NOT MATCH lab experiments (breadboards built with individually pinned-out ASIC devices... aka "kit parts").

Comparing the Fortran code to the original Gummel-Poon paper, and comparing to follow-up papers, I uncovered a fundamental flaw in the original paper AND the code... B-E capacitance improperly modeled during forward bias.

Fortunately, back in those days, I was able to talk to a programmer in Concord (GenRad) and we quickly patched the code.

Match was still imperfect, which I traced to inadequate data-taking to account for leakage and beta-degradation terms.

A few years later, I, an OmniComp/GenRad employee (John Spellman), and my son (Aaron), together wrote a Pascal program that would process a huge amount of raw data and closely fit about 6 model parameters.

Problem solved. But it left me with a good sound skepticism about device models. I still stay wary about simulations that don't fit my physical expectations.

Of course there remain "scientists" (Slowman for example) who stick their thumb up a colleague's asshole, and claim accurate computer-modeled predictions of global warming/cooling based on the color retrieved ;-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

What about

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"Over areas of the Himalayas, the rate of warming is more than five times faster than warming globally," said William Lau, head of atmospheric sciences at NASA?s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. "Based on the differences it?s not difficult to conclude that greenhouse gases are not the sole agents of change in this region. There?s a localized phenomenon at play."

???said Lau. ?We need to add another topic to the climate dialogue.?

Reply to
Raveninghorde

e.=94- Hide quoted text -

Everyone should be required to watch the episode of Twighltght Zone "The Midnight Sun".

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Rod Sirling was a genius.

Mark

Reply to
Mark

Far from it. But since you regularly insult the science of climatology and its practitioners with you ill-founded misconceptions, and other response to your irrational maunderings would be excessively charitable.

Back when you were a slim 17-year-old and could do well on IQ tests. This does seem to be a long time ago, and your IQ appears to have shrunk even faster than your waistline has expanded.

Jim Thompson has also made similar claims. Too much beer and a total lack of intellectual exercise seems to have reduced it to neglibible poportions in recent years.

I too was a clever child. My brain does seem to have remained active since then.

Phil Jones hasn't resigned, but has merely stood down for momennt while the university investigates the matter.Nor is there any evidence that anyone actually destroyed any e-mails (let alone data). Chris Mooney - the author of "The Republican War on Science" has set out the rational response to Climategate.

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You, like Ravinghorde, have a conspiracy theory habit, fed by an obvious incapacity to make sense of what you read. The "evidence" you come up with can only convince an objective observer that you have abandoned logic for wishful thinking.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

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Why would gradually doubling the cost of energy in industrialised countries turn them into "second world countries"? The quadrupling of the price of oil after the 1973 oil crisis didn't have this effect, and a gradual, planned changeover to more sustainable energy sources should be much less disruptive.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

I have been known to post on electronics here. As for the science check out "A W Sloman" on google.scholar.org, then take your brain off to the nearest Alzheimer's climic for a memory check.

Granting your enfeebled intellect, you can't detect any difference between the various ways that I demonstrate that you and your denialist friends are producing nonsense. Since you all seem to get your nonsense from a raher restricted collection of denialist web- sites, some of the counter-arguments do get recycled from time to time.

The Chris Mooney quote earlier in this thread is only two days old, so it - at least - is new.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

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Thereby demonstarting that you don't have much of a scientific background

Why bother? You are dim enough to have swallowed the basic fallacy in the denialist argument, and failed to understand that "denialism" is bought and paid for propaganda serving the fossil-carbon extraction industry. Your opinions on higher level content aren't worth bothering about because you've fallen at the first hurdle.

Tell us what is wrong with this report

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and - if you do find a weakness - we could take you seriously.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

John Larkin trots out this bogus mantra at every possible opportunity. Nothing can persuade him that climate models - which aren't subject to the butterfly effect - are basically different from weather models, that are.

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Irrelevant.

Equally irrelevant

A skill which he now thinks that he can extrapolate to climate modelling, when he doesn't appreicate the difference between climate models and weaterh models.

This thoroughly comical over-confidence - a very highly developed case managementitist.

James Arthur tells us the same story, but also claims the expertise necessary to make sense of the source code, while claiming that climate models go unstable in a fortnight, just like weather models - he has back-tracked on that specific claim, but he replaced it with claims that are scarcely less implausible.

Why is Exxon-Mobil shoving denialist propaganda down our throats?

Why would they need to invent a scientific theory to do that?

?

A sensible quote, for once.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Reply to
Bill Sloman

Jim Thompson remains as thoroughly out of touch with reality as ever. I was sceptical about computer simulations back in 1969, where one of the one's I was using to fit my experimental data failed to fit reality - because the intial flow of gas into my reaction vessel was turbulent, not laminar.

I've sustained the habit over a long career. but I'm not silly enough to believe that because individual computer models prove to be over- simplified, every computer model has to be wrong, nor do I believe that because a Gummel-Poon model sems to be inadequate, a VBIC model can't be right.

John Larkin, by contrast, believes that because weather models break- down after about a fortnight, due to the buttelrfly effects, climate models have to be equally useless.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

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