44kHz Doppler air speed meter evaluation and software realisation, INVENTIION

44kHz Doppler air speed measurement evaluation and software realization. Been a bit busy, but then yesterday I wrote some code for a PIC 18F14K22 to process the signals from the 44 kHz transmitter and receiver in the 'wind tunnel'. 3700 lines of ASM, and it worked first time. Of course cut and paste worked too from older projects, but not bad.

I used the 2 PIC comparators to make square waves from the sine waves of the transmitter and receiver, very nice, zero bias on the comparators, nice zero crossings, good symmetrical square waves, no noise.

As I did the math while in bed just before falling asleep, it turned out to be a factor of exactly 10 wrong. Well, what I am trying to say is that I expected to be able to count 370 increments of a counter between the rising edges of the created square wave at 360 degrees phase shift, but could only do 40 in the PIC. Something to do with clock speed, and even more so clock domains, the comparator outputs are synched to the 16 MHz processor clock, so you always have that (variable delay), plus instruction time to process things. I tried the interrupt version first, and then, to see if it was faster, just a simple loop. Not faster, about the same (the real time counter in the PIC is also synched to the processor clock domain, when using internal clock). What this means is that at a range of say 100 km/h (aprox.), the resolution is about 10 degrees or 1/36 of 100 so about 3 km/h. Usable but I like perfection.

Sure bigger faster processor, measure delays, go partly analog, sample and measure with PIC ADC. but there are many other factors too that need to go into the math so I started thinking.

Now to get a patent, with my objections to patents and especially software patents, and patent trolls, all men should invent should be available to all. So invent something never seen and never heard before,.

So here my train of thought:

'I also needed a way to measure the true air speed in my wind tunnel pipe (as reference). One way to do this is put a very light ball (pingpong ball?) in the pipe and see how long it takes to travel to the end, easier said then done, but that would, if the ball was light enough, be a measure of TRUE airspeed. No shit about pressure, altitude, density, temperature, what not.

So, small balls, and what is the smallest ball we electronic[s] wizards know: YES The electron! Now electrons do not travel well in air, normally, that is why our TV tubes are vacuum...

But you know lightning, they DO travel... especially charge.

So if I injected a high voltage spike into an insulation tube where the air blows through, should it not charge (any moisture 'cloud', or even to some extent ionize that air (no sparks just a x kV pulse) ). The charged particle (excess electrons) would then travel with the _air_ and a simple high impedance (MOSFET) input a bit further down wind will pick it up, first the EM at next to zero delay (light speed), but a bit later the arrival of the charged air (lightning cloud). And that is massless (to a low value of nothing), and travels at exactly the speed of the air, without regard to any other parameters, So, have not build it yet, busy day, thought of that this morning, but the idea hereby donated into the public domain, so here is prior art if you now run for that patent office. Of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say in the UK, so will this work, take your bets! The circuit is almost identical to what I have now, coil, MOSFET, PIC delay measurement. maybe the weekend....

Reply to
Jan Panteltje
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On a sunny day (Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:28:59 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje wrote in :

Progress report, ran some initial tests, disappointment of course, too easy, too low voltage, 2 kV, scope as probe.... no signal... Clearly it was not ionizing.....

Got old He Neon laser supply, removed it from older PMT experiment, now I have >>10 kV, and a nice arc, room smells like ozone.... That should do it, it pulses all by itself if you adjust the voltage right, even already has the PIC, control via RS232, so that saves time. But table is full:

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The HV ion factory in the front, in orange, the yellow thing holds the arcing wire. Much better colors than ... The interesting thing is that many of these little boards and computahs are connected by a gang of alligators.. So I cannot just remove some... I would never approve this way of working if I encountered it elsewhere... Anyways the spark gap will need to go into the wind tunnel tube, in one hole, and the MOSFET sensor into the other hole. I am ahead of schedule.

This guy has the right setup to make ion wind:

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So, that, longer tube, external air flow in, and voltage detector downstream, pulse it, and there is a nice true airspeed meter, Bit of fireworks should be no problem, engines do the same. I was thinking about one measurement per second, as planes do not, or rather cannot, change speed a lot in such a short time, due to their mass (if they would they would fall apart). So nice 1 second apart sparks should do? The idea is hereby put in the public domain, that includes any method of making the spark, and detecting it.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

After watching my electrostatic air cleaner shift 'sizzle's and 'arc sounds' when I change the air speed from slowest to medium; just occurred to me: What if, you launch charge but measure in TWO places, one up stream and and one downstream? The circuit would then become a 'balance' circuit which is easier to do than an absolute circuit. Put a PIC in there to measure Iup vs Idown divided by Itotal, that way you don't care much about accuracy, but a lot about ratio. Anyway, food for thought.

Reply to
RobertMacy

On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:19:52 -0700) it happened RobertMacy wrote in :

That could work at very low speeds, but I would expect at speeds up to 1000 km/h not much to make it 'upstream', or should I say 'up wind'?

At 1000 km/h and a 1 meter tube, the time it takes to travel all the tube length is speed in m/s = (1000 * 1000) / 3600 = 2.777778e+02 so 278 m/s (some storm!) Time then 1 / 278 = 3.6 ms ( or 3600 / 10^6 ) This is slow, easy to count with a PIC, it is linear too, 100 km/h = 36 ms, etc. Much easier than finding the phase between two 44 kHz signals, or time difference due to Doppler, not even counting all the other parameters. Point of interest is how steep is (or can be made) the charged cloud front, edge in charge detector, slice level, diameter and length tube (for minimum speed), etc. Experiments....

An alternative is to make the ionized air in some separate compartment and blow it in periodically into the tube.

Ebay has some nice HV generators and diodes for very few $$, and small too. USB air purifiers go for about 9 $, these potted HV generators for about 11 $, 20 kV diodes for 5 $. Can all be made small and light.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Hmmm, 1W at 20kV is 50uA of current with a Z of approx 400 MegOhms not going to use your scope probe there.

Reply to
RobertMacy

On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:27:42 -0700) it happened RobertMacy wrote in :

In the early eighties I accidently touched a booster tube anode with the 1/10 probe of this scope. The importer gave me free chips to replace.. Its still working today, use it almost every day. Analog scopes are worth gold. So I have learned a lesson, it will be the dual gate MOSFET with protection cicuit.

ebay claims to have a 400 kV Tesla for teh sme money,. I just think he ment 40 kV..

20 mm spark, 400 kV would be much longer, so watch out looking for HV generators. ebay item nr 221227846397 what do you think?
Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Agree 400kV sounds a bit high, like more in the range of a van de Graff,

40kV is not so hard to get, and not quite so likely to arc over.

You 'can' make your own high voltage probe, use a series of 100MegOhm resistors, if don't have that a LONG string of 10M's

If you make it carefully, it will have good bandwidth too. and not damage the scope if discharges. You have to work out the values to get the right multiplications though.

[You can make a series of 'ring' connections down the resistor stack so that there is a gentle transition from high voltage to gnd.]

And, DONT COUNT ON INSULATION! count, instead, on construction techniques.

Reply to
RobertMacy

On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:00:39 -0700) it happened RobertMacy wrote in :

Yes, this is good to 2.4 kV V or so:

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for my gamma spectrometer.

Allowed voltage is limited by the flash over of the SMDs.

There were nice HV resistors for TV focus around, bit big though.

Yep C1 x R1 = C2 x R2 to get flat response;

in ----C1---- |- R1 ---| |------> out to scope (C2 R2 IS the scope input 1M 30 pF or whatever, the rest follows. | | C2 R2 | | /// ///

Yep

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

AKA, ignoring stuff that matters a lot, what not.

If you wanna play with sparks, that's cool. If you wanna measure airspeed in a wind tunnel, take two incandescent lights. Bust the glass off one. Instant hot-wire anemometer sensor.

Reply to
mike

rule of thumb for 1/4 W axial lead 'old style' resistors is 3kV each resistor. From memory, the 1/2W, or were those the 1W, went to 5kV each.

Reply to
RobertMacy

Guess that would be enough to generate some scattered neutrons, x rays from the contact point etc..

If memory serves, there was a Japanese scientist, before I was born, that learned with ~ 380Kv discharging in a puddle of mercury, you would get gold. That was proven to be correct latter on in years using a reactor to verify this. However, the cost of the reactor time verses the net return didn't prove to be economical.

Jamie

Reply to
Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.

On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:01:13 -0800) it happened mike wrote in :

Not so, highly non linear for a start, sensitive to a thousand other things:

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Rejected it as a good solution.

As to sparks, I have worked with real HV (power station stuff).

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:39:24 -0500) it happened "Maynard A. Philbrook Jr." wrote in :

Interesting.. :-)

Makes one want to try it, mercury to gold. mercury is pretty nasty stuff though, some place where I worked they used a mercury vacuum gauge, the @%!^&$@# technician managed to suck the mercury out and spray the office building airco system. I am still alive... Did not tell anyone either ?where is the mercury?.

There is also gold and uranium in sea water, not worth getting it out either.

In my first job we had a HV cage, used to test HV transformers for power plants, now that could make sparks a meter long. Lots of safety locks..

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

That's what calibration curves are for.

sensitive to a thousand other things:

Ok, name just a dozen things that affect an incandescent lamp bridge more than a FET gate hanging out in space looking at charge transport in wind in unknown electric and magnetic fields.

I did a few experiments trying to measure air flow. Biggest problem I had was making the air flow uniform enough that the measurement thru the sensor represented the airflow where it mattered in the apparatus.

Reply to
mike

On a sunny day (Fri, 13 Dec 2013 03:26:19 -0800) it happened mike wrote in :

Well lets start with temperature (-40 C), then vibration, oxidation, birds sucked in that hit your wire, hamsters, aliens, you know, just about everything in the currently known universe that fits into a tube, etc etc...

You know, you are free to find airspeed by looking at how much wind bows down trees, I am sure with enough tree recognition sofweare, correct math for the bending radius,. seasonal corrections for the amount of leaves for the type of trees found, etc, what I want to say is: IF YOU WANT TO MEASURE SOMETHING TRY TO MEASURE IT IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, NOT SOME DERIVED ENTITY.

This is why I donate this increadible INVENTION on mine to humanity, possibly it can save thousands of lifes, leaving in the middle if those should be saved, but anyways, it would keep the gene pool alive (or am I misquoting). It is free for you to use, or not to use, at your wish.

Yes, as I stated before, size of tube and diameter, the whole setup needs some experiments to test what is the best way to do this,. Whatever it may be, it WILL measure true air speed.

And is that not much more fun than just copycat a bad solution. :-)

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

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